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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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| Opinions on the Odex fiasco in Singapore |       |
If you haven't heard, Singapore largest (the rest barely make a dent, actually) anime distributor is launching legal lawsuits to downloaders all over Singapore, and hundreds have already been made to pay anywhere between 3-5k (albeit settled out of court, paid to ODex directly) and to sign an agreement to never download anime.
Think the mp3 crackdown a few years ago.
Anyway, I call it a fiasco because while the intention is to crack down on downloads and get people to support the local releases, what it did was to get nearly everyone to BOYCOTT the company. Basically, ppl who MAY buy the titles are now people who WILL NOT buy the titles.
The summary is as follows: Odex created a branch to provide local releases of anime. However, their releases are notorious for extremely bad subtitling that makes no sense, translations of translations (jap->chinese->english), and worse of all: some of their "translators" simply ripped subs of fansubs.
Other complaints include sub-par video quality (much debated) and a questionable choice of titles, where some fans argue are unlikely to sell due to their unpopularity, as well as some titles being more than 2 years old, as well as some where production simply stopped (One Piece was supposedly stopped at box 8, or episode 104).
Supposedly, the situation has changed and professional translators are brought in, although this information is still doubtful, and more recent titles brought in, like Monster and Solty Rei. But because of the initial "hiccups", fans no longer trust the quality of the company of the majority seem to have simply given up over buying their releases, and continued to look at fansubs for their anime needs.
Thus a few months ago, Odex decided to take legal action against downloaders.
The lastest news is the long-awaited update of the Odex website.
Click here
Previously, the site contains a full two words, which are "Under" and "Construction". As you can see, that has expanded to an essay of legal junk probably no one can understand, consisting of lots of probable bullshit.
This thread is where you can that latest news (WARNING: Singaporeans aren't known for good english). You can find my very long post near the end, posted under this very same name.
Feel free to look around to read the numerous topics, all lamenting about the same situation in various ways.
There's also another website, a subsidiary of Odex, called AVPAS, or Anti-Video Piracy Association Singapore. If you click the link to the Authorized Titles, you'll find an extensive list of what is supposedly ILLEGAL for download in Singapore.
But don't bother going through it. One glance is enough to tell you that it's simply a copy&paste list of virtually every popular and semi-popular anime title.
Oh, and here's the thing: the list doesn't reflect what is actually licensed and available in Singapore. Far from it, what's actually available here is but a very tiny fraction.
And here's the best part: there's almost no way of knowing what exactly is available on the shelves. The website, as mentioned above, is an embarrassment.
Here is where YOU guys come in.
What do you guys think of the situation?
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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 08.21.2007, 01:57 AM |
   
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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Without going to the website you provide links for it does need to be said that downloading anime from the web IS illegal. Full stop. No arguments. You can moan and bitch until you're blue in the face about that but it won't change the facts.
However people download for a variety of reasons, many just do it because they can and they are parasites. Some however have stronger arguments which centre around the poor quality of many retail subs (and poor or incomplete selection of titles as you so rightly comment, poor quality of video and a dozen other complaints) or the simple lack of any subs.
I used to buy all my anime online or in retail stores in the UK using money. Recent personal financial constraints have put a stop to that, plus I have begun now to discover that there is a shedload of great anime out there I am never ever likely to see subbed officially.
So I too have recently begun to download fansubs (although I do not BitTorrent or any P2P system and never will).
I tell myself that when series become available on DVD with subs I'll buy them. But many just never do.
But even so, there is still no excuse. I'm sorry but buying anime with money is the only lawful way to support the industry. If the industry won't sub everything on the planet they won't sell it so they lose.
If you d/l an anime series that the company you name doesn't actually publish they cannot sue you. To bring a suit they must prove actual financial loss. I don't see how they can possibly do so in a global internet market when any downloader can claim 1) the anime they downloaded isn't published by this company or 2) even if it was they wouldn't have bought it from them but would have gone to another source.
Also such companies won't go after the small fry like me (even if I was in Singapore) I think I have something like 8 or 10 series on my hard drive. They probably won't even go after you Roarkiller, I doubt your collection is huge enough. No, these guys will go for the huge leechers and downloaders who have tons and tons of stuff and are P2Ping it all over the globe.
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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 08.21.2007, 08:18 AM |
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frigidchill
Totoro
Registration Date: 08.13.07
Location: Staffordshire, England
Posts: 773 |
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I buy practically all of my anime.
In fact, downloading or youtube-ing an anime only serves as a means to judge whether the anime is worth buying. (Downloading is a bit of an overstatement. The only thing I've ever downloaded was the complete manga of Elfen Lied, only because there was no way it was going to get published in English. And I still haven't read it.)
I like having DVD's. I like having them stacked up in a nice completed series on my shelf. But only the good ones. Most of the stuff I've seen online I'm probably never going to buy, either because I don't think it's worth it (plot or money wise), or won't buy now because I haven't got the money.
And yea, I guess the fact it's illegal should be a deterrent, but the cost of catching someone who's downloaded a bit of anime isn't worth it.
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| 08.21.2007, 09:55 AM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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Fansubs are technically illegal no matter how you look at it. Many people will argue whether it's "morally wrong", that debate has stretched for longer than it should...For all this time they've operated under the "they don't care" banner, but recently companies like MFI are starting to put a stop to fansubs, probably because they now realize that worldwide distribution may actually have some potential after all.
I don't think using Bittorent or P2P is "worse" than downloading fansubs any other way, it's illegal no matter how you do it. Besides, some people (like me) use P2P services for legal purposes so I dislike when people think they're inherently bad and evil.
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| 08.21.2007, 11:14 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
Baron
Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335 |
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I try to buy everything I own, but some things are so difficult to find that I've succumbed to downloading on a couple occasions. Ocean Waves, for example, I couldn't find anywhere, so I ended up downloading it.
I know it's illegal, but it's not like I'm going out of my way to leech money from companies. I'm only downloading stuff that I can't get ahold of by legal means.
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| 08.21.2007, 11:16 AM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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On their site:
quote:
The objective of this enforcement drive is to carry out sustained action that will serve as a wake-up call to anime fans and other internet users in Singapore that downloading is illegal.
Most people downloading anime already know that it isn't exactly a perfectly legal thing to do. They do it because they believe in inhabits a "gray area" of morality. Most fansub groups, or at least the "respectable" ones, stop subbing series once they have been licensed. Sites like Animesuki stop listing them when they've been licensed. So the motive basically becomes to watch anime that can't be seen legally yet. Of course, not everyone downloads anime with this rule...
quote:
At present, no damages have been claimed
Earlier they said they are pursuing not only titles licensed by them, but even those that are not. Why would this company claim damages for downloading of series that they have not licensed?
What I find interesting is how they make mention of Animesuki, of internet forums and internet posters. An American company would never be so personal with their legal issues..
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| 08.21.2007, 12:00 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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Downloading is illegal, no one is going to refute that.
The argument here, however, is the action of the said company.
Several counter-arguments have indeed cropped up, including the fact that they cannot sue you for loss because they don't even sell the title in the first place.
But that's not the issue. Especially as quoted by Theowne.
Read: They HAVE extorted (to put it bluntly) tens of thousands of dollars already, and from reports, you are as likely to receive the "love letter" if you download one episode or a thousand. So saddle, I am as likely to receive the letter as anyone else.
Legally, like said, the company CANNOT sue you for something they don't have a license for. One of the major reasons is simply: they're not the holders of the copyright, nor are they the exclusive distributor (apparently). So they don't have the rights to sue.
Which leaves them only a civil lawsuit for damages by loss of sales. Which again is hot down, because they don't have the license, let alone have them on the shelves.
And yet they still send letters threatening legal action, with the added bonus that if you pay them whatever they ask you, they won't sue you (like they can). Even if you HAVE been buying their products.
THAT is the problem we're facing.
__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
Post last edited by Roarkiller on 08.21.2007, 12:37 PM.
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| 08.21.2007, 12:36 PM |
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frigidchill
Totoro
Registration Date: 08.13.07
Location: Staffordshire, England
Posts: 773 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller And yet they still send letters threatening legal action, with the added bonus that if you pay them whatever they ask you, they won't sue you (like they can). Even if you HAVE been buying their products.
THAT is the problem we're facing.
Wow, so they're basically committing fraud then. Has anyone come back against these "love letters"?
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| 08.21.2007, 03:57 PM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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well, i might as well get my 2 cents in.
to say that downloading is illegal for everything, i can agree, but the problem is you cant stop it, threaten legal action all you want, people who want to find away around it will, hell, change your ip adress to something out of the country and you are set ot go, i think that works, i am a bit rusty on dodging lawsuits, as i live in the wonderful country of canada where they dont care. they probably do but they are way to lazy to do anythting about it. it is like trying to ban smoking,who enforces this? they have a public smoking ban in my city, who enforces it? the police? it costs to much to enforce, so the law exists but its isnt getting enforce.
but as it appears, you are getting letters, and they are serious, so that puts you in a pickle. now, unless you know how to dodge however they are usuing to screen you and catch you, then i guess you may just have to stop the downloading. i dont think they should do that, im sure that the industry isnt in bad shape because of the p2p networks anf such, since you said most people are going to boycott it then the company has screwed itself. there are plenty of people who go out and buy it, why are they so worried.
i do see that they are trying to get money from the citizens, it must be in trouble to try that tactic. i think companies are just looking for an out to why they are loosing business, someone is always to blame.
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| 08.21.2007, 04:24 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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I agree Roar that this company is going about it in a very poorly organised if not exactly unprofessional way. As I said in my post they can only sue people if they can prove actual financial loss. Which if the fansub is of a series they don't publish, they can't.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 08.21.2007, 06:17 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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That's the problem. But no matter what, receiving a court order is no laughing matter.
The company is, by far and large, already gone and destroyed itself almost beyond repair. That they are targeting anyone and everyone is proof of that.
Which is why the entire community has rallied to stand up against them. In fact, they are already gathering legal intelligence so no one else needs to suffer. I'm amongst one of them gathering arguments against their case, despite not knowing anything about the law.
What's interesting to note is that during the mp3 crackdown, the letters of warning were sent out before any action was taken, and only one or two actually received fines or went to jail, and these were always those who uploaded files.
Realize that Odex issued no such warning, and went straight to extortion.
__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 08.22.2007, 01:11 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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Sounds like they have dug themselves a nice big hole and are still shovelling...
I'm sure one of the writs will backfire soon and it will all go quiet and th efansyubbers will carry on as they always have done. After the monster mp3 crackdown of a couple of years back has that really stopped the illegal D/L music market?
As long as we have an internet, we'll have internet crime. I'm not proud to have done a very tiny amount of that myself although the few series I keep because they are good, I will replace with DVD boxed sets when they get made with a sub.
__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 08.22.2007, 08:12 AM |
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