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Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
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I wouldn't say this debate is ended; I'm just refraining from contributing too much when Saviour is away.
When you say "legal or selfish gratification", are you implying that there's something called legal gratification?
I think Orphic's point is that same-sex couples deserve to be treated equally under the law as mixed-sex couples; the alternative is legal discrimination. If granting citizenship to someone who marries a local is a loophole, and citizenship should be more restrictive, then that loophole should also be closed for mixed-sex couples. There's no legal basis for discriminatory treatment of same-sex couples, and therefore, no argument against gay marriage. Or so the thinking goes, these days.
I can't say much about underage marriages, save that I agree personally with Orphic. I don't have the background to discuss it with facts and statistics. Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't have been capable of making earnest decisions about my own marital status before the age of 14 at the very earliest. Prior to that age, I was so dependent upon and trusting of my elders that it would have been very difficult for me to object, if pressure had been applied to force me into marriage. And if it were a really serious matter -- like "you will agree to this marriage or you will not live with us in this house" -- then I wouldn't have been capable of refusing until I could have safely lived on my own, which would have been around the age of high school graduation.
Fortunately there's no way my family would have done that. But there are some families that do, even in Canada. I don't believe that I have ever been below-average maturity among my peers, so probably for most other people it would be similar.
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Post last edited by Mush on 11.03.2013, 11:35 AM.
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 11.02.2013, 01:19 PM |
  
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
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Generalisations are always dangerous. While I agree with Roar that some kids at a young age can display maturity and resourcefulness, many cannot and our laws need to be in place to protect everyone, so they have to define a point at which adults are assumed to be able to make life-changing decisions for themselves. This point is always age-defined (for simplicity and ease of legal application) and it does vary between states but generally speaking its towards the upper end of the teenaged years for that good reason.
While in some cases marriage =/= sex, in many it does and if a state allows adult males to marry child females that also opens up the well-known instances of the paedophile minority to travel to such places purely because it offers the opportunity to have sex with children.
I fully support equality in all things for same-sex couples alongside M/F couples. If a man and a woman can "exploit" legal and financial advantages by marrying, why shouldn't two men or two women?
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 11.02.2013, 01:50 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12803 |
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As a history buff, one of the things I remember about early times was that children were not thought of as 'children' per se, but as small adults, thus in criminal cases, for example, they were charged and punished at the same level as adults...
And, speaking for the States, it wasn't that long ago that the "age of consent" in many States was as low as 13 years of age and I seem to recall one State was only 10 yrs of age.
It wasn't until relatively modern times that that underage marriages were considered unlawful...
The coming of age of younger and younger children was mentioned as being a possible result of more proteins in the diet. I personally know of one family whose daughter 'matured' at the age of 8... I saw the mom while waiting at a car dealership where she worked. I asked about the family and she said that "dau" was home from school because she wasn't feeling well. I hope she's not too sick, I said and was then told that she wasn't sick, but feeling the effects of menstruation.
just my little bit of info...
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Post last edited by husky51 on 11.03.2013, 04:02 AM.
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| 11.03.2013, 03:34 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
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Menstruation only implies a physical change, not a mental one. I expect the medical profession knows of many cases like the one you mentioned Husky but that in no way suggests those girls are mentally ready for marriage or sexual relations.
The rest of this post isn't directed at you Husky, yours just brought to mind something I've been wanting to say for a few days.
Everyone of course argues from their own frame of reference in time and society, that's entirely logical and understandable. Its why Saviour considers that banks are doing wrong by charging interest. It was only 150 years ago that in southern states it was lawful to own another person like one owned a horse or land but that isn't to mean that an argument I put out today against slavery is in any way diminished.
Likewise if I was a Victorian businessman I would pay small boys a few pennies to climb and clean chimneys or haul carts of coal out of mines but while children were treated differently in the past it again doesn't reduce any argument for the contrary today. That argument is somewhat disingenious and if extrapolated fully backwars in society's evolution would justify a feudal system or even cavemen killing each other and roasting their neighbours over a fire.
Things did change after all, people in the USA no longer legally own slaves and English chimney sweeps don't employ 7 year old boys; these changes came about for good reasons - the constantly changing face of societies values is a fact and it doesn't make any logic to argue from a standpoint of 500, 100, 50 or even 10 years ago.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 11.03.2013, 10:04 AM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mush
When you say "legal or selfish gratification", are you implying that there's something called legal gratification?
Sometimes I hate English. So very, very much.
Anyway, I do get the point of legal discrimination. But you have to consider that a lot of couples are not getting married either, and thus share the same problems as gay couples, yet remain unmarried.
Bottomline, the problem isn't about the marriage legality, but the law's view on the definition of "family", particularly in its applications. I believe this to be the root cause of pretty much every problem that exists in this debate.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 11.03.2013, 12:04 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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A man and a woman can choose to marry or not to. In many places 2 men or 2 women do not have that choice. That's discrimination.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 11.03.2013, 12:45 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12803 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Menstruation only implies a physical change, not a mental one. I expect the medical profession knows of many cases like the one you mentioned Husky but that in no way suggests those girls are mentally ready for marriage or sexual relations.
I agree with you as to the children not being mentally or emotionally mature enough for marriage and/or sexual relations, but I thought that had been covered earlier so I didn't mention it. When my own dau didn't mature physically by 11/12, we found from the Doctor that the early menses was a growing concern in the medical profession and better diet was said to be a contributory factor. Daughter was fine, just a late bloomer... lol
Thanks for bringing it out...
==================================
edit:
@Roar...
A number of States have laws that a man and a woman living together for a certain period of time are considered married, as in a common-law marriage. Doesn't impact the Federal definitions, though.
=================
This thought just came to mind...
I was thinking that, YES, same sex couples should have the same legal status as any heterosexual couple and my mind traveled along the lines of anybody should have the right to marry whomever they choose to. Then my mind wandered into the subject of plural marriages and I wonder about that aspect. It isn't legal in any State, but is practiced in some areas. This still doesn't say that child marriages are a good thing, I don't believe that for a minute...
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Post last edited by husky51 on 11.03.2013, 01:57 PM.
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| 11.03.2013, 01:47 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12803 |
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| 11.04.2013, 01:10 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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| 11.04.2013, 09:10 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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To be fair, there are a few points that are new to me in those links, and several which are too advanced for me to understand (I'm not that knowledgeable, lol).
But I don't see many points that require more dwelling on, and the few that do are easily explained away even by non-muslims.
I'd like to know if there are any points of interest I can further research upon. Also, for better or worse, it seems that this discussion has veered us to a very familiar path... again XD Not complaining though; as they say, we are all still learning.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 11.05.2013, 11:16 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
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The issue is key to many of our discussions though because Saviour bases his whole belief system on the Qur'an and its famously unaltered text. There really isn't any proof of an unaltered text because the oldest extant copies are from the 9th century (the copy in Tashkent) and the fragments found that date from the 7th century have differences.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 11.05.2013, 11:50 AM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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Although I will return after two or three weeks later
before that i would like you guys to have a look at some references both about the starting of modern science and also about the islamic belief about science.
These were made by BBC FOUR. Done by a muslim scientist living in west teaching in a west university. All the comments here are done by scientists and also very knowledgeable scientist.
It almost [almost because some things i do not fully agree] reflect my opinion.
It is very long for about three hours but very entertaining.
Thats why i am giving it about three weeks ago so you can atleast get one hour each week to watch every episode.
This is important cause i will make many of my point around these subjects. Please watch it.
#Full Series HD 3 Hour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL41gX0fJng
Episode wise 1 Hour each
#Episode 1: Language of Science
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPlaS_wGzx8
#Episode 2: Empire of Reason
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzrvWOEnLA0
#Episode 3: Power of Doubt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjdnKE_i9E
NB: You should only watch it to know the relationship between islam and science thats all.
Thanks
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Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 11.19.2013, 02:57 AM.
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| 11.19.2013, 02:55 AM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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I posted those videos at 18 and today is 30.
I am giving you another week to watch those videos and i am going to post next week.
Everyone who is interested in this thread can post if they have watched those three videos.
Lets clear some important ideas
1.What i want to prove?
Ans: I want to prove that Islam is a faith based religion however unlike other faith based religion
1.it is not completely unprovable.
2.No Quranic verse will go against a fortified scientific law[almost all of them are about physics]
3.I do not intend to extend to Quantum mechanics as it is not still developed however the fundamental rules are completely with quran. Uncertainty principal is one of them.
It is because i do not understand quantum mathematics.I only got one quantum math teacher in my university although he is good[as a person] he is extremely busy as he is one of the few in the country.I will contact him within month after taking preparation cause if i look dumb infront of him he wont teach me specifically as these are not course matter anywhere in Bangladesh.I only want to learn the basics and the physical interpretation.Overall i am in a bad shape so it is stupidity to talk about something i dont know.
These are the topics.
1 Mathematical formulation of quantum mechanics
Will learn this
2 Schrödinger equation
Will learn this
3 Symmetry
Will learn this
4 Quantum states
Will learn this
5 Dirac equation
Will learn this
6 Interpretations of quantum mechanics
Will learn this
7 Quantum field theory
Dont have any teacher[highly advanced]
8 Computation[Highly advanced but got no choice but to try to learn by myself this suck actually foreign people get more facility sometimes these things are not something i can just tap in internet and learn.]
Will learn this
9 Supersymmetry
Dont have any teacher[highly advanced]
10 Quantum gravity
NO
11 Non-commutative geometry
NO
12 String theory
NO
So cant talk about his until i learn these will take sometime about two year plus just to learn the basics.
4.In the end if i can show that Islamic facts actually stand and it is not absolutely based on belief then my work is done.However some things in islam are based on belief cause those things are the test.
and i can not actually define universal or reality these are the verse i found in Qur'an[it was a complete luck[alhamdulillah] that i read this one i want just browsing pages randomly and saw i dont remember reading it then voila]
that
Al-Haaqqa (THE REALITY)
1.The Sure Reality!
2.What is the Sure Reality?
3.And what will make thee realise what the Sure Reality is?
Allah says that we can not prove universal truth or truth or reality or universality. It completely makes sense cause if i can prove reality then actually i can prove everything in islam there will be no test nothing.But thats not Allah's wish. So continuing some part of the axiom thing will be incorrect.Will elaborate that part when i post.
5.MOST IMPORTANTLY i want to prove if anyone is atheist it is just a mere choice. Science has absolutely no relationship with atheism. And also i want to say atheism is a trending belief in some scientists and and students, more easily it is just cool to be an atheist than a theist for a science student or researcher. nothing more. which is creating negative attitude toward scientific studies. I can see that in almost every field of Islamic and some non Islamic nations. People who is pursuing pure science carrier many many of them are becoming atheist so nowadays people getting more inclined to engineering than science which is causing science to progress less. One of the major example is quantum Mechanics it is been almost 80+ years very very little progress has been made in the field, of which most are within 70s. It is mostly because some science area people are really into thinking there IS no god. So these people are blocking path for many talented people just for being theists. Which is devastating for science as it is based on proof not thinking. science is based on free ideas which stemmed from Islam so believing something specifically without proof will just halt science which we are seeing right now at the progress of science.[these thing just happened in europe before will just happen again first it was for theism now for atheism]
Thank you very much.
NB: Dont worry evolution fans i have got something for you guys too.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 11.30.2013, 12:01 AM.
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| 11.29.2013, 11:32 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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I watched the videos Saviour but there was nothing new and surprising in them, I'd seen them before. I'd like to think I'm fairly well up to speed on the diverse history of scientific and academic endeavour, both in Europe and Islamic countries, as well as the far east.
I didn't see much in those videos that implied that Islam has or had any great monopoly on scientific thinking and I also don't see that this particularly links to the faith of the wise men involved. The presenter of that series also highlighted a lot of ignorance and incorrect thinking among Islamic academics in the medieval period, just like European academics had incorrect ideas and often pursued them erroneously.
The source of much of Islam's literary and scientific wealth was other cultures, Greek and Indian and they just took those ideas and even that wasn't driven by any ideas of faith or necessarily for a greater good but by simple human greed - gold paid out to any scholar who delivered a new text to the Caliph's library. In the same way much of European scientific and literary wealth came from Islam, via Venetian trade, through Constantinople/Istanbul and from the conquest of the Moors in Spain. What goes around comes around, it's all linked into one continuous flow of time and ideas and these things will be found by man whether he's a Catholic, Islamic, Bhuddist, Hindu or has no faith in a God at all.
It was interesting to see that it was a European, Copernicus, who was the first to take all the gathered data and be the one to state the correct layout of the solar system. Like Europeans before him, Islamic astronomers thought the earth was at the centre of the universe. The presenter's comment that Copernicus wasn't the first of the great European astronomers but the last Islamic one is really disingenious. Islamic scholars had the ideas but couldn't conceptualize them correctly. It took a European man to do that.
I don't see that series as stengthening your argument in any way; every culture has given us great thinkers and wise men over millenia, from Europe to China to Japan to the Arab world to the Incas and Mayans (who had an exceptionally accurate calendar). All cultures are going to produce great people, Europe's problem was the collapse of the Roman empire which left an academic vacuum for more than 500 years. It might be argued that the rise of the Roman empire, and not its fall, was the main hindrance to great thinkers since out of their own arrogance they destroyed much of what the Greeks could have given them.
There was an excellent documentary on BBC4 about the Antikythera mechanism which I cannot now find a copy of online though I did download it via a torrent. This was a Greek built mechanism that predicted dates, events and solar and lunar cycles with great accuracy and is now acepted as the worlds oldest computer. It's construction is attributed to Archimedes who was murdered by Roman soldiers at the siege of Syracuse in 212 BC. The ideas of gear wheels were lost to the west but were known in Islamic countries for many centuries and later their use and utility came into the hands of Europeans in Spain after getting the technology from the Moors.
The Antikythera mechanism is one example of how great ideas get passed on over centuries and across hundreds if not thousands of miles by dozens of forward thinking people, regardless of culture or belief.
__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 11.30.2013, 08:53 AM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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i wrote a 5000+ character post which is lost. so sad. 
i will answer those when i post next week
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
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| 11.30.2013, 10:33 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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Am I the only one who has lost track of what is supposed to be going on anymore?
__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 12.01.2013, 08:11 AM |
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Calforsale
Totoro
Registration Date: 01.19.10
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 866 |
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Wow a lot going on here :S
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| 12.09.2013, 06:47 AM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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hey calforsale
missed you truth to be told, everything going ok?
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
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| 12.09.2013, 08:30 AM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12803 |
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| 12.09.2013, 02:46 PM |
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Calforsale
Totoro
Registration Date: 01.19.10
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 866 |
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Thanks guys, its good to be back. I was just a bit busy because of exams. I only say a bit because i didn't use my time wisely lol... i studied a fair bit but not as much as i should have.
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| 12.12.2013, 12:55 AM |
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