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Miyrru
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This kinda just came to me and i might be able to come up with another good discussion reminisent of my 'princess nine revisited' thread.
here is my case, after watching a fair share of series, i have come to a pretty simple conclusion:Every anime series is open ended. what is up with this, did the writers get lazy or do the just count on their viewers to have imaginations. is it that hard ot pen something beginning to end, that answers all the questions that are created as the series moves along, and then finally reaches the end and answers them all. maybe i lack imagination, but this has also made appearances in novels, films and such, hell most art is open ended. how come this is the case?
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Post last edited by Miyrru on 05.22.2007, 03:57 PM.
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 05.22.2007, 03:57 PM |
   
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Loscil
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YO!
In blockbusters its always that way.
Kinda obvious why aswell.
btw.. FLCL is not open ended.
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| 05.22.2007, 04:13 PM |
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Miyrru
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okay, FLCL is closed ending and im taking your word as i havent seen it, but it is now being beaten to death as a cliche. blockbusters do it to piss off fans IMO. why do you think George Lucas went and made the FIRST 3 star wars rather than make up 3 new ones? yeah the material is already there and he is in his sellout phase, but seriously come up with a new idea.
but predominantly, most of every tv, literature, anime, whatever it is, just ends and expects you to fill the void. i would rather have them creativly kill off all the charachers at the end. even that is cliche to an extent, but it give you a solid ending.
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| 05.22.2007, 04:22 PM |
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Saddletank
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SEL isn't open ended.
Nor is Saikano.
Nor is Cowboy Bebop.
I think Evangelion was a pretty well tied up ending (either of them).
Kare Kano just ran out of time and money so yes, that one is open.
Ghost in the Shell = yes, open.
So from what I've watched more seem to have a closed end than an open one.
But from a marketing POV its clearly best to have an open end so that you can add more in future if you wish.
I personally prefer a story to have a beginning, a middle and an end. I'm just not that arty, I like traditional storytelling.
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| 05.22.2007, 04:25 PM |
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Miyrru
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yes for a marketing point of view, but when was the last time that someone had an anime series for example, and waited a long time before continuing it, im sure there are some examples of it, but none i know.
and SEL i never finished(i know, i gotta get on that)
Saikano was good in that it did end.
evangelion was really open ended IMO, their is plenty more that can be done
princess nine was really open ended.
stellvia was opend ended.
rozen maiden was IMO open ended
various films are open ended like GITS, several ghiblis, and such.
maybe its just what ive been watching, but in other literature, especially books, everything is open ended.
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| 05.22.2007, 04:30 PM |
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Saddletank
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Well, there is a 'true' open ending in which everything is left hanging in the air and nothing is answered (Blood: The Last Vampire). And there is the 'semi' open ending (like Kiki or Porco) where it's fairly clear what happens to the characters after the credits roll but enough is left for the viewer to go away and think about it (or set up a web forum and go foaming off forever in theories).
But generating discussion is a good marketing ploy too as the word will get around and more people will buy it.
Not sure what you see 'open' at the end of Evangelion. At the end of the TV series Shinji mentally patched himself up and came to his own conclusions and in the movie he and Asuka were a form of Adam and Eve (were there others on earth? Yes, given the storyline).
Clearly life goes on after these endings but I wouldn't say that was an open ending. The story is all told, there isn't anything else to really tell about the characters. They have their lives to life, granted, but those lives aren't important to the story. The story itself is finished.
I think in books most stories are closed? I seem to recall most that I read have closed endings.
Maybe we're disagreeing on what is a closed or open ending? - ha, much like your other thread.
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| 05.22.2007, 04:40 PM |
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Miyrru
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disagreement gives birth to discussion.
in Evangelion, i see your point, yes, the story that was started was finished, but the aftermath still raises questions. im rusty on the series, need to see it again. to me a open ending, is one where it sets up a lead to future events. ill use princess nine as my example, cause one likes baseball here other than me, and wont care for spoilers. The girls team loses the semi final game, then there are a few revisiting of places as the PA announcer says ' im sure we will see this team again yadda yadda' and then it ends. in the series they were supposed to get three years to try and win it. three years is a long period of time and charachters of old can be evolved and new charachters can be introduced, as their are multiple problems with the team that are unresovled. this is what i see as open, their is more to the story that is beign told, and that could be animated. but for some reason it just stops.
i think that helps, another example would be stellvia, where their was a 2nd season in the works but it got axed. the author recognized and wanted to tell more of his story but for various reasons, it was unable to be finished or continued.
as with literature, maybe its the school system, but its heavy on open ended books with lots of underlying meanings. and then they through in some Jane Austin work, which is the same story in each book, and all of them are terrible books to begin with.
so in conclusion, open endedness to me anyways, is where their is more to the story that is left untold.
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| 05.22.2007, 04:51 PM |
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Saddletank
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We agree then: "the story being told here is unfinished" is the definition. But by that definition I'm comfortable that Evangelion is a closed end.
Clearly Princess Nine is open. Was another series planned? Or was the ending a true teaser that left the viewer wanting more?
Stellvia I think has to be discounted. If a season is planned but not implemented due to business factors we can't count that because we can't say what the situation would have been at the end of the second (unmade) season.
I'm eager to discuss more series/movies that we both know.
But I think your question was "why is so much anime open-ended?" And I think we answered that: for reasons of generating cash - either in a sequel or by making the show generate discussion and more potential buyers. Remember making anime is a business and many studios will promote a series to some people with funding, so the idea has to be a profitable one.
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| 05.22.2007, 05:20 PM |
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Miyrru
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yes i do believe that we agree in definition. and i still regard Evangelion as open, i still think that there is more that can be told, maybe not another 26eps, but there can be more added. Im not sure what happened to princess nine. i was really look foreward to some sort of continuation, but quick research doused that quickly.
stellvia i guess can be removed, but i think there was some time between the end of the first and a potential start of a second, it may have been considered complete, but with the chance of continuation the author(i cant remember who) wanted to make a second season. i might change my mind on that one, as the end of the first season is pretty much an ending, i could continue, but then it would be a run-of-the-mill high school drama.
i agree that its a business, and that the design of business is to make money, but would you not be able to profit more if you released one season, had a break and sold merchandise, and then but out another season?
It is easy to make money if the first season is successful. i use start wars as an example, the 4,5,6 were great films, and 1,2,3, werent necissary, but Lucas cashed in big time on those films.
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| 05.22.2007, 07:05 PM |
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Roarkiller
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A story never ends, simply because a person's life doesn't end until he/she dies.
And then, because it's imaginary anyway, he/she can always come back to life in more ways than you can imagine.
A 'closed' end in the sense where that particular story is comfortably wrapped up, happens far more often than you can imagine. Personally, I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.
Every story can be continued. A look at Spirited Away reveals a thousand different fan-based continuations. If that's your idea of an 'open' end, then literally every story is open-ended. It's why we never know what happened to the children lured by the Pied Piper, what happened to Snow White's stepmother, what happened to the witch that changed the Little Mermaid into human.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 05.22.2007, 11:23 PM |
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Saddletank
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True, and as you say, what happened to the kids/stepmothers/whatever is irrelevant to that story thus I agree with you that those fairy tales are closed ends.
An in the same way Evangelion is a closed ending because that particular story is told - there isn't any more we need to know after we see Shinji trying and failing to strange Asuka. Yes they may get up and walk off and both live to be 100 but for the purposes of this story, it's over.
For the purposes of another story (call it "After Evangelion" if you like) it's open, but our definition excludes oither stories bolted onto the end of existing ones.
But anyway, maybe we should discuss other series/movies/ideas.
For example are there more open endings in series as opposed to movies? And if so, why?
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| 05.24.2007, 04:48 PM |
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Roarkiller
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I think a better discussion would be on how an series/movie is improperly closed, like irrelevant cliffhangers, rushed ending, that kinda stuff.
NGE got one of the worst reviews for their endings than any other anime I have seen, and for good reason. This has been discussed to death, so next series.
Surprisingly, ghibli films also suffers from less-than-stellar endings. A look at reviews from Whisper alone shows how many people felt that a proposal for marriage was somehow inappropriate and made it look like the producers wanted a quick wrap-up. (Personally disagree, how you confess your love differs for everyone.) And than there's HMC, which IMO suffers THE worst endings amongst all ghibli films. Too rushed, too abrupt, too many loose ends. In fact, I'd dare say th main weakness of ghibli movies are their endings.
Or sometimes the ending doesn't really have anything wrong, but just feels like something's wrong. That's what I felt after watching A Promised Place. The slight ambiguity of what happened after the girl woke up I can understand, but somehow the whole ending just, you know, doesn't feel right.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 05.25.2007, 12:17 AM |
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Miyrru
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yeha thats probabaly a better discussion, NGE has been over discussed so moving right along.
Howls was bad, it just stopped. i think rozen maiden, despie that i really want another ova, or somethign else, it was ended very slickly. the last battle was intense and things closed on a happy note. i think a good telling to if somethign was close off prematurely is withier or not there are an abundance of fanfictions runnign around of it. if something has been closed nicely it takes more work and more imagination to continue it.
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| 05.25.2007, 03:27 PM |
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Saddletank
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Interesting how perceptions differ, Howl's conclusion all being dealt with on the last floorboard of the castle and turnip-head turning human and running off to end the war was fairly daft. But even so, I thought th eloose ends were either tied up or were such fine threads as to make no real difference.
Kare Kano anime - bloody horrible ending. How Gainax financially ran themselves I do not know, NGE was a messed up financial ending, so was this. It ended totally at the wrong place (and annoyingly there was a perfect end spot only 2 more vols on which is where it should have stopped). While the anime wasted about 4 eps of time on recaps and irrelevant side stories (Yukinos 2 younger sisters story was completely irrelevant and not from the manga at all).
Place Promised on the other hand was a very satisfying ending for me and everything felt tightly wrapped up (though admittedly rather sad).
I'm not sure about other Ghibli endings, I don't have a problem with them. Any open-endedness is clearly intentional and designed to provoke thought and not a lack of director ability or confused storyboarding.
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| 05.25.2007, 03:59 PM |
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Miyrru
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never knew galinax did kare kano as well, and that is odd that they cant budget an anime, as they have two good series with dud endings.
i think alot of the ghiblis ending are sketch. Mononokes was good, doesnt really have anything substantial that could happen, Spirited Aways was very nice, leaves everything closed. Porco's was adequate enough. Whispers was kinda skechy, could have not been as aburpt. others like Nausicaa i think, as i havent seen it in a bit were pretty good, solid with out too much extras streched into it.
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| 05.25.2007, 04:07 PM |
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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan
never knew gainax did kare kano as well
Oh, yeah, although Anno walked out part way through over apparent disagreements with Tsuda Masami the manga author, it was the first production Gainax did that wasn't based on one of their own manga).
I think this was the last anime Anno did. He'd been working on live action stuff prior to this (its made in 98-99) and went back to live action afterwards. He's of course now planning the four new EVA movies.
It's fun to spot the EVA-references in Kare Kano, there are lots, the main girl character even looks somewhat like and at times behaves very much like Asuka (only she's depicted in a funny way rather than an angry way), and the main boy character has a lot of Shinji in him. As in EVA several of the kids struggle with broken family backgrounds. One girl even has a dead mother and a father who remarries (and she struggles with that) which was exactly Asuka's situation.
However be aware all these character stories and elements come from the manga which was nothing to do with Anno Hideaki at all, so all this is pure (but strange) co-incidence.
I have this gut feeling that this manga might even have attracted Anno to make an anime of it because aspects of it reminded him of his EVA characters.
As I said elsewhere, there are a couple of background scenes taken direct from EVA and lots of view of skies, cityscapes etc that are exactly the same style as in EVA.
There's one scene where the lead girl Yukino is sitting at her desk, looking down slightly thoughtful, slightly wistful, and if you just coloured her hair blue she would be EXACTLY, I mean EXACTLY Ayanami Rei.
And one scene where the lead boy, Soichiro is wrestling with some inner demons, his body posture and face looks spookily like Shinji.
Despite its lumpy production qualities from the mid-way point and the dubious ending I recommend it highly. EVA fans particulalry will have a few deja-vu moments.
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| 05.26.2007, 08:52 PM |
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Miyrru
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hmm, sounds good, i need something to watch since im done rozen maiden, ill definitly look into it as i enjoyed NGE very much.
it did several things very well, and maybe i am over looking what it really means (see Princess Nine Revisited) but it was one of the first series that hooked me on anime, as it had a good message in 'this is what we can do with animation' sorta way. i will definitly check out kare kano, your and i have similar tastes in anime, so im sure it will be good.
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| 05.26.2007, 08:58 PM |
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Roarkiller
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@saddle: On that blue-haired girl, not really. Not many people realize this, but more often than not, an anime character's character can be defined by her hair colour, amongst other features. Blonds are usually the spunky type. Reds are the fun-loving cutsie types. And blues are, of course, the more inward types.
Other more obvious features include that little fang you sometimes see to indicate mischief, and eye design.
Btw, I finally watched my JinRoh R2 DVD yesterday, and was reminded again why I had considered it the best anime movie, if not best anime. Apart from the boring history lecture in the beginning (lasting less than two minutes), it was, in my eyes, virtually perfect.
On topic, the ending was wrapped up tighter than almost any other movie/series. Hell, it was impossible to even try to continue that particular story in any way.
No spoilers, I ain't never gonna give any for this movie. Seriously, this is a compulsory for anyone who appreciates art. Particular attention is paid to the relevance of the German/Russion version of Red Riding Hood (which, as any self-respecting literature expert knows, has more than one version, like many other fairytales).
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
Post last edited by Roarkiller on 05.26.2007, 11:04 PM.
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| 05.26.2007, 10:58 PM |
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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
@saddle: On that blue-haired girl, not really. Not many people realize this, but more often than not, an anime character's character can be defined by her hair colour, amongst other features. Blonds are usually the spunky type. Reds are the fun-loving cutsie types. And blues are, of course, the more inward types.
Thank you. You know that's a real insight I had not noticed and looking again now at various characters I can see how that works, certainly the NGE and KK characters fit that pattern.
Have you any take on / is there any 'rule' on purple hair?
But when I said that the Yukino face was like the Rei face I merely meant in only the drawing on the screen, the exact same shape (which is not Yukino's normal face at all), she's nothing like Rei usually, it was just this one brief profile shot where it felt like Anno had taken an old cel of Rei and recoloured the hair. It made my hair stand on end seeing it.
Some of the NGE references in KK are so fast you'll miss them without a step-pause facility on your remote. They are a single frame sometimes and come in at the subliminal level.
And, yeah, Jin Roh, 'nuff said. I only watched it the once. It made me feel quite down for a day or two afterwards but I owe it to myself to watch it again soon.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 05.27.2007, 05:14 AM.
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| 05.27.2007, 05:12 AM |
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Miyrru
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yeah ill go do that, i meant to watch JinRoh a few years ago, never got around to it, but now that i need somethign new, ill fire that up on azureus.
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| 05.27.2007, 11:25 AM |
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