  |
| Author |
|
saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
|
| and you said west does not sensor internet |       |
actually you guys should never disbelieve me as i do not post crap.
they are creating a yottabites capable datacenter in utah to store your things
NSA Leaks 2013 - A Timeline of NSA Revelations
Since June 6, reporters at The Guardian and a handful of other news outlets have published a slew of articles reporting on top-secret documents leaked by National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden. Only a few of these documents have been made public. Nevertheless, the reporting paints a picture of a global surveillance complex operated by the NSA that is massive in its reach and precision.
In a forest that big, sometimes the trees get lost. That's why we've created this timeline, which highlights some of the most significant NSA revelations and why they matter.
NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily
Reported by The Guardian on June 5, 2013
Why It Matters: In the first reported case of widespread domestic surveillance under President Barack Obama, The Guardian revealed that the NSA was collecting Verizon customers' telephone metadata, thanks to a court order issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) to Verizon Business Services, the commercial-customer division of the landline provider. Apparently, Verizon Business Services has been receiving such orders since 2006. The news site also published the FISA court order for Verizon customers' phone records between Apr. 25 and July 19 2013.
Additional Commentary and Analysis:
FAQ: What's Going On With These Tapped Verizon Calls? (TechNewsDaily)
Based on What We Know, is the NSA Verizon Request Legal? (NPR)
NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners (Forbes)
NSA PRISM program taps in to user data of Apple, Google and others
Reported by The Guardian and the Washington Post on June 6, 2013
Why It Matters: We learned of PRISM, a top-secret surveillance program that gives the NSA access to the information exchanged across Google, Facebook, Apple, and other U.S. internet communication platforms. The government was quick to clarify that all NSA programs, including PRISM only targets foreign nationals, as U.S. law protects the privacy of citizens and legal residents.
Additionall Commentary and Analysis:
Why Prism Shouldn't Surprise You (TechNewsDaily)
Edward Snowden identifies himself as source of NSA leaks (The Guardian)
Interview with NSA Whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I don't want to live in a society that does these sorts of things.' (Laura Poitras, YouTube)
Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages
Reported by The Guardian on July 11, 2013
Why It Matters: The nature of relations between the NSA and the companies involved in PRISM is still unclear, but according to this report Microsoft appears to work more closely with the NSA than other online media platforms to give the agency access to its systems. However, it's important to note that The Guardian's report on Microsoft was light on details, and the news outlet did not publish any actual leaked documents on the subject.
Microsoft Helps NSA Crack Encryption, Leaked Documents Say (TechNewsDaily)
Google Encrypts Data Amid Backlash Against NSA Spying (Washington Post)
Microsoft and Yahoo Voice Alarm Over NSA's Assault on Internet Encryption (The Guardian)
Live chat with Edward Snowden
Reported by The Guardian on June 21, 2013
Why It Matters: The most significant part of this live chat was Snowden saying that "Encryption works. Properly implemented strong crypto systems [meaning encryption, or scrambling of digital data] are one of the few things that you can rely on. Unfortunately, endpoint security is so terrifically weak that [the] NSA can frequently find ways around it." At this time Snowden also officially denied that he's working with Russia or China.
Additional Commentary and Analysis:
Can You Hide Anything from the NSA? (Tom's Guide)
Statement from Edward Snowden in Moscow (WikiLeaks)
U.S. Tells Russia Snowden Won't Face Death Penalty (Al Jazeera)
GCHQ taps fibre-optic cables for secret access to world's communications
Reported by The Guardian on June 21, 2013
Why It Matters: Technically, this isn't a revelation: The U.S. and U.K. intelligence communities have a long history of sharing intelligence. But The Guardian's reporting on more Snowden documents describe a program called Tempora, in which British spy agency GCHQ (the British equivalent to the NSA) taps into the network of cables that comprise phone and Internet communications. Britain, which has more legal ability to surveil Americans than the NSA does, shares the information gathered through Tempora with the NSA.
Additional Commentary and Analysis:
U.K. Spy Agency Secretly Taps Over 200 Fiber-Optic Cables, Shares Data with NSA (Wired)
The Creepy, Long-Standing Practice of Undersea Cable Tapping (The Atlantic)
A simple guide to GCHQ's internet surveillance programme Tempora (Wired.co.uk)
Xkeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'
Reported by The Guardian on July 31, 2013
Why It Matters: According to a 2008 NSA presentation published by The Guardian, XKeyscore is a program that NSA analysts use to search through the massive amounts of data that pass over its worldwide servers every day. Using search terms such as a name, email address, IP address or more, the NSA can quickly gather information on a specific target.
Additional Commentary and Analysis:
New Snowden leak: NSA program taps all you do online (CNN)
Latest Leak Shows NSA Can Collect Nearly Any Internet Activity Worldwide Without Prior Authorization (TechDirt)
NSA Director Defends Surveillance to Angry Audience (Tom's Guide)
NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds
Reported by The Washington Post on August 15, 2013
Why It Matters: An internal NSA document and a FISA court reprimand, both published by The Washington Post, reveal that individuals at the NSA overstepped the organization's legal authority on numerous occasions, usually involving the surveillance of American citizens. The infractions occurred both at the behest of superiors and, in at least one case, to spy on a former spouse. The Post also published a "What is a violation?" training presentation used by the NSA, and a presentation teaching NSA agents how to rationalize their surveillance decisions to FISA and other NSA overseers.
Additional Commentary and Analysis:
NSA Officers Spy on Love Interests (Wall Street Journal)
Court: Ability to police U.S. spying program limited (Washington Post)
Lawmakers Probe Willful Abuses of Power by NSA Analysts (Bloomberg)
US and UK spy agencies defeat privacy and security on the internet
Reported by the New York Times and The Guardian on September 5, 2013
Why It Matters: This is the most significant reveal yet. We now know the NSA has been working for years to undermine the encryption and other security standards employed across the vast majority of the Internet's architecture. The Guardian also published an NSA document explaining Project Bullrun, the codename for its efforts to "defeat encryption," and a document about how its "Sigint" program tries to insert backdoors or vulnerabilities in security products and standards.
Additional Commentary and Analysis:
Why the Latest NSA Leak is Scariest of All (Tom's Guide)
NSA Hasn't Cracked Basic Internet Encryption (Yet) (Tom's Guide)
Of course NSA can crack crypto. Anyone can. The question is, how much? (Ars Technica)
NSA can spy on smartphone data
Reported by Der Spiegel on September 7, 2013
Why It Matters: The article by German magazine Der Spiegel is frustratingly vague, and contains little that wasn't already known or suspected. The most important information from this reveal is that the NSA appears to have cracked BlackBerrys, previously thought to be the most secure commercially available smartphones. Further, the article suggests that NSA might still have trouble getting into Apple's iPhones.
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/nsa-leaks-timeline,news-17540.html
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
|
|
 09.12.2013, 10:50 AM |
    
|
husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12799 |
|
|
| 09.12.2013, 01:10 PM |
|
Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
|
|
You got a real bee in your bonnet about this haven't you?
It's not censoring, its observing and recording. Spying if you prefer. But we've known that for years anyway.
__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 09.12.2013, 08:30 PM.
|
|
| 09.12.2013, 08:29 PM |
|
Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
|
|
This is spying, not censorship. It's also being done by the USA, not "the West". The targets include other Western countries, such as Germany. Pretty much everyone is aware that this is going on and many (such as myself) are unhappy enough about it to do something.
__________________
|
|
| 09.12.2013, 08:52 PM |
|
saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
|
|
I really cant believe you guys fall for it
even you mush
hahahahahahaha
lol
background:
it is that i went to one of my senior's room it was written in his monitor
"what r doing?" which basically does not make sense.so i said you wrote "what r you doing?" ?. he said i wrote exactly what you read. i was just playing mind tricks.
lol.
sorry i should not have done that
It IS sensor that i meant and that is what written in the article. the data center will act as a complex data sensing and trigerring device to collect various user information in worldwide internet traffic.
now please dont babble about grammatical and other language mistakes. You can come up with unlimited facts that my wordings are not correct. i dont care,i meant what i meant.but i do not understand why it is always those kind of mistakes you want to find in my posts.i post it without even reading it so they contain various problems.it would have been nice if you enlightened me on the topic.
@saddle
you can say i have a very very very bad feeling about this as i would not be able to get raw information from net anymore.
@mush
who do you consider west. I think north america and great britain comprises west and both of them did take steps to stop free flow of data in the internet. i had a post about britain about this .
serious talk:
now i have said this before and saying this again most of you guys have no idea what kind of information you guys are provided. if any site is taken down or not indexed in the search engine right after its emergence you will never ever find it unless you know the url which is not available to you. So you need to realize that this kind of scheme will take west people further away from the real truth of their government. I was kind of happy when i saw west people were getting
away from tv and newspaper; and started to collect info from net. it created positive effect on sopa bla bla bills. then many people understood the problems of war and anti-war movement is better than ever was. specially the middle class have been getting knowledgible about these things. so govts understood the power of net and now they are fighting against those. They have a preety big budget that could give houses to millions of houseless people in US and UK.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
|
|
| 09.13.2013, 02:03 AM |
|
San Toelle Ul Shichikokuyama-g
Ohmu
Registration Date: 04.12.12
Location: Right behind you.
Posts: 346 |
|
|
Um Saviour... We're all relatively intelligent here...
Sorry, I thought you had left your pretentiousness at the dispute we had a while ago...
|
|
| 09.13.2013, 06:27 AM |
|
arren18
Administrator
Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 10669 |
|
|
You really aren't using the correct definition of "censor" though. Saddles and Mush are right, and they aren't "falling for" anything. They're correcting you on your choice of language, and also saying that they know this goes on. Regarding the West, it sounds like it means whatever you want it to mean. Mush pointed out that Germany was a victim of this, and Germany is very widely considered a "western" country, but then you decided to draw the line at the US and UK.
By the way, starting out by having a go at people (the title and first sentence make it clear that you're targeting somebody) is really not a good way to convince them that you're right.
__________________
|
|
| 09.13.2013, 06:50 AM |
|
saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by San Toelle Ul Shichikokuyama-g
Um Saviour... We're all relatively intelligent here...
Sorry, I thought you had left your pretentiousness at the dispute we had a while ago...
the problem is san that people always want to find mistakes and i really do not like that because no one is perfect in any sense. if they said "did you mean censor saviour" then i would have said "no i meant sensor" it would have been nice .
but instead they said which is kind of like you made a mistake and wrote s instead of c. that is where my problem begun. i hope you understand. i never show-off it is very very true. that incident was different ,OK.
People here are more than intelligent, so there is not even a single chance that i would think anyone inferior than me. it is I who is most inferior than all in most of the cases.
It was just a silly joke as the topic is very sad and depressing.
@arren
i have given up convincing people that i am right. Cause until you face the truth you will never actually believe what i am saying.specially if you have such a great respect toward the system. if you do not find any faults in the system how you can get my points.
Now i do not want to argue if they fall for it not.it is nothing serious. i just thought the same thing that my senior made a mistake and tried to correct him.
What you mean by censorship arren?
it is quite a broad term what i understand is the first paragraph of this link
http://gilc.org/speech/osistudy/censorship/
and you guys actually said that internet censorship is not in effect prevalently in west in a discussion about chinese internet.
you are right in the case that i tend to bend the word west in different cases. it is based on similarity in that particular area.
so a little explanation
in culture west = europe+america[broad sense]
in politics west = america+britain
in technology west = japan+russia+europe+america
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 09.13.2013, 09:19 AM.
|
|
| 09.13.2013, 09:16 AM |
|
arren18
Administrator
Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 10669 |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
specially if you have such a great respect toward the system.
Well, that certainly is an assumption, and one that is, at least in my case, wrong. When I and others have disagreed with you, we've explained our reasoning why. However, you seem to insist on this delusion that we can't face The Truth. In fact, in this very thread, three people have made it clear that we're well aware of these matters, but cannot agree with you about what that actually is.
Anyway, in answer to your question, I agree with the definition offered in the first sentence of that link: "the control of the information and ideas". What we've been talking about here is not control but observation. While both are real problems, and we should be and are unhappy about this, it is misleading to say that it's the same thing as banning certain content from view (however, in that other discussion about the British porn filter, censorship was an appropriate description).
__________________
|
|
| 09.13.2013, 10:29 AM |
|
Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
|
|
It seems we have a basic misunderstanding of the meaning of a word.
To 'sense' is to be aware of something. Our senses - sight, smell, taste, touch, hearing. From this root word we get 'sensory' as in using your senses to be aware of something. We use our senses to gather information on the world around us.
To 'censor' means to block, edit, inhibit or otherwise interrupt the flow of information.
(A 'censer' by the way is a metal device, often of brass, used to burn incense in, and sometimes used in religious protocols and is irrelevant here).
What your article refers to Saviour is an example of the first word, to gather information, NOT to inhibit or block it. Over the past few months however you have been proclaiming on this forum that "the west" (whatever that is as Arren highlights) is "censoring" the internet.
Its this statement that I an others are refuting and which we refuted in that discussion on internet access in China.
I am sorry but it is hardly our problem or duty to try and understand you if you staart of by using the wrong word and then press on through a whole discussion defending your position stil based on a misunderstanding that you fail to clarify (and which we cannot because we are not telepathic).
All the articles you referred to in your first post refer to gathering of information and spying, not blocking out information or websites such as is common in countries like China, north Korea and a number of Muslim countries as a matter of state policy.
I am aware that in the UK certain internet service providers block access to some websites, for example a friend of mine who is a Virgin Internet customer cannot access a couple of well-known torrent sites. His ISP blocks them. However individuals are free to change ISPs and access these sites if they wish. As I said months ago, there is censorship of the internet at the level of private companies and corporations but nowhere between Istanbul and Kamchatka and north of Tangier does any government block internet traffic as a specific policy. I'm pretty much certain of this.
__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 09.13.2013, 10:56 AM.
|
|
| 09.13.2013, 10:52 AM |
|
saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by arren18
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
specially if you have such a great respect toward the system.
Well, that certainly is an assumption, and one that is, at least in my case, wrong. When I and others have disagreed with you, we've explained our reasoning why. However, you seem to insist on this delusion that we can't face The Truth. In fact, in this very thread, three people have made it clear that we're well aware of these matters, but cannot agree with you about what that actually is.
Anyway, in answer to your question, I agree with the definition offered in the first sentence of that link: "the control of the information and ideas". What we've been talking about here is not control but observation. While both are real problems, and we should be and are unhappy about this, it is misleading to say that it's the same thing as banning certain content from view (however, in that other discussion about the British porn filter, censorship was an appropriate description).
I do not know how many times i have to say this but here it goes again
1.Did you know that NSA was doing that thing did google microsoft yahoo facebook inform you? NO
It was a leak
2.Did your government inform you?No
they gave statement after the leak
Now can you answer why they need yottabites[Cern datacenter is smaller than this] capable datacenter.
you can say stopping global terrorist activities. But thats exactly what your govt said.
why they need personalized profile of individual?
to check on the individual that is what govt said, truth is they want to track every possible individual, so they wanted database integration within google microsoft yahoo and facebook. microsoft gave access. google gave some. yahoo ceo said it will be treason if they do not provide information, i do not know what facebook did.
I do not know if you know about the dark side of internet. that is the tor network. it had created a virtually anonymous network that no one can know your true identity. then suddenly i found that nsa and some other govt agencies are drowning serious money into tor. and this year several thousand tor browser was hacked and tor community was asked to turn off any kind of scripts.
Now that you still believe what your govt said i can not understand how that means you do not respect the system.
In the past several years i have seen that govts and people are falling apart. govts are using spying and other methods just like they used in the dark ages.you will see a lot of similarities in those methods and govts.
If you really can not see the truth then you are lucky, you can feel better. My problem is not privacy i do not care about that but i really care about free thinking if someone forces me to think within a boundary i feel helpless.
@Saddleank
sensor is a electric or electronic device.
actually that is not my article it is just copy pasted.
the first three lines are mine [title+ first two]
I just deduced that such a massive scale monitoring structure is not needed unless you want to control internet.
i think i have very very thorough and truthful in my observations.Almost all of my words came true sooner or later. it is not because i know more or understand more. i think you probably thought there was weapon of mass destruction in iraq. now you will assume that it is only for monitoring until there is another snowden or wikileaks. I feel that there will be none as they already begun their operation.
Actually wikileaks is the incident that made the govt so frightened about people.
It is your country and it really loves you i really can not deny that. most west countries until now have tried their most to create a social security fence for its citizen.
But Western Dream or more popularly said American Dream has faded. Tension is rising among asia and muslim world vs western civilization.
Now to make you guys[yes all the people of the west] fight for something stupid [just like crusades or vietnam war] they need to shut your senses to feel what is right.
I really cant be that naive to ignore all of that
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
|
|
| 09.13.2013, 12:46 PM |
|
Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
|
|
The only time the internet will gain real freedom is when it's not controlled by telcos and/or the govt.
Until then, assume that Uncle Sam is always looking over the shoulder. Although I have to say that it's pretty funny and ironic how this has people riled up, yet don't give a damn about God watching over them (the ones who believe in Him, anyway).
__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
|
|
| 09.13.2013, 01:18 PM |
|
husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12799 |
|
|
| 09.13.2013, 02:26 PM |
|
Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
@Saddleank
sensor is a electric or electronic device.
I agree. Its another word derived from the root word 'sense'. However I never mentioned that word so I don't know why you are bringing it up.
The word and subject under discussion is censor, censoring and censorship.
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012 I just deduced that such a massive scale monitoring structure is not needed unless you want to control internet.
I would suggest that you came to the wrong conclusion completely there. They don't want to control the internet, they want to gather data on people and organisations. Having a free and open internet with all manner of odd and illegal sites these people and organisations can access is actually very much in their favour, if you think about what it is they're doing.
LOL, Roar! I think there's two very different images caused by the idea of God watching us (loving and benign) and the Feds watching (corrupt and sinister). That made me chuckle. I can quite understand a person being fine with the one and not with the other.
__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 09.13.2013, 02:56 PM.
|
|
| 09.13.2013, 02:50 PM |
|
saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
I would suggest that you came to the wrong conclusion completely there. They don't want to control the internet, they want to gather data on people and organisations.
Having a free and open internet with all manner of odd and illegal sites these people and organisations can access is actually very much in their favour, if you think about what it is they're doing.
And do you have any facts behind that belief other than the govt's speech.
please provide proof why do you think that because all the empirical facts are against them.
I brought up the word sensor because that was what i meant, i can not exactly say something unless i have solid proof. i did not talk about censorship very much because of that reason.
My belief is based on empirical facts not proof so they may or may not be correct but i am very positive that that is the case, what i mentioned.
And the last para actually made me laugh from the inside[sad] . You are saying in a country where prostitution,porn and drugs[more or less will be in next few years] are legal and where there is no straight forward binding that makes something legal or illegal[alcohol for example], where murder and many other serious crimes are treated as nothing. says me it will make illegal things go away from internet, i do not know if even you believe that
It is just a hide or cover. there are pretty much several hundred ways to stop a site or makes it less attractive which are effective and user-friendly.
actually this happened before and happening now too you understand what i mean but want go around the fact
You said free and open.
that is exactly what i am saying.Do you not understand free flowing internet means you are given choice of choosing the right one. they want take that freedom away and make it just like your print or electronic media. that creates propaganda and distributes it from various point of view that gives you the illusion of getting tha whole picture.
Right now examples are Syria and Egypt. You have to see what is the condition of Detroit,still america wants to attack syria. is that what people want.
Many people from internet know what is actually happening but if they just can control some facebook accounts then you will get a completely fake but believable picture of the situation.
You can still believe your govts words but it just makes it worse and worse until the time you face the consequence.
that is what i do not want i do not want that scale of war in my lifetime.
But people like you who strongly disbelieve something that is so clear makes me sad.
It is not your fault and it can be changed there are many people i have seen that too understand this and live in your country. you just have to be brave enough to accept that you live in a world full of lies. i think this has been my key point for the last one and a half year.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 09.14.2013, 03:22 AM.
|
|
| 09.14.2013, 03:08 AM |
|
Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
|
|
Your opening post is the proof that these organisations are spying/observing/collecting data and not censoring. Its you who needs to prove to us that actual govt-sponsored censorship is going on.
Or maybe we're just confusing words and their meanings again?
quote:
You are saying in a country where prostitution, porn and drugs [more or less will be in next few years] are legal and where there is no straight forward binding that makes something legal or illegal [alcohol for example], where murder and many other serious crimes are treated as nothing. says me it will make illegal things go away from internet, i do not know if even you believe that
Its statements like this that make me so frustarted debating with you.
Quite frankly WTF are you talking about?
Which country are you referring to? You demand proof and evidence from us yet make sweeping and unsupported and untrue statments like "where prostitution and drugs are legal [more or less will be in next few years]." and "murder and many other serious crimes are treated as nothing" and expect me to treat your debating position seriously. In which country specifically is "murder treated as nothing"?
You never seem to understand what it is I'm saying.
Honestly, you talk complete nonesense and your condescending and superior attitude (the closing lines of your post) does nothing to help your debating position and much to harm it. I feel that you are wasting my time here so I'm exiting this discussion.
__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 09.14.2013, 08:54 AM.
|
|
| 09.14.2013, 08:51 AM |
|
Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
I brought up the word sensor because that was what i meant, i can not exactly say something unless i have solid proof. i did not talk about censorship very much because of that reason.
In that case, nobody said that "the West does not 'sensor' the internet". Your use of that sentence as the post title is what led to the confusion; we could either assume you mixed up two very similar English words, which is an innocent mistake, or else we can assume that you are making an obviously false claim about what Tavern members said. When we gave you the benefit of the doubt, you laughed at us for falling for a facetious prank.
I'm with Saddletank here; if you're intent on tossing out a huge number vague generalizations and then expecting us to refute each one of them with data, you'll be disappointed. In each case you seem to do so in order to paint the West as some kind of sinful, lawless place, when actually these are complicated issues that deserve fair consideration.
Alcohol used to be illegal, and that led to an upsurge of organized crime. So now it's strictly regulated instead; most countries have minimum drinking ages, licensing for areas that can sell alcohol, labeling requirements on alcoholic beverages, and restrictions on what people who drink alcohol can do (such as driving, or drinking in public). Tobacco is a similar story.
Prostitution is, in many places (such as the USA), illegal. Some other countries have found that making prostitution illegal also results in an upsurge of organized crime, since prostitutes are unable to seek police protection (as they will be arrested). Some other countries make it legal to be a prostitute, but illegal to purchase their services. In other cases, it's regulated more like alcohol, with the intention of improving working conditions and safety for those involved.
I'm not aware of anywhere in the world where murder is not treated as a serious crime. quote:
america wants to attack syria.
Actually, 'America' doesn't. Obama wanted to attack Syria, but he seems to be happier with a diplomatic solution with Russia. The American public is mostly opposed to military action in Syria, as is Congress. Obama can still order an attack without authorization from Congress, and probably will if diplomacy falls through. Do you see how overly simplistic it is to say that "America wants to attack Syria"?
Why do you seem to think we're sheep who just accept everything we're told? For the most part, we're way more skeptical and media-savvy than you apparently think we are.
Yeesh. At least I can say that this sort of conversation has given me a much more appreciative view of how Chinese netizens must feel when Westerners talk about their government.
__________________
Post last edited by Mush on 09.14.2013, 11:39 AM.
|
|
| 09.14.2013, 11:33 AM |
|
saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
|
|
But Mush if you accept that obama and his fellows attack syria and do not do anything to stop that then people all around the world(mostly asia) will automatically assume that you support it. It is how asia works. You have to be in either of the side.
That is why i always say that there is no neutral place between good and bad.
You do not understand how most asian people hate west nowadays.
I am a pro west that is why i am treated badly if i try to say that" most general american or english people are good. they do not like war." because then they say why they do not stop their govts. which i do not have a straight answer.Why you(west) do not protest strongly ;it is because you do not know the real picture the massacres and other conspiracy they do.They do it by controlling media. And that is censorship in my humble opinion.If you know the picture but still can not or will not react then you are just heartless maniac.
Why do you think american people have been exercised unnecessary entertainment. You will understand it if you ask a general kid about world condition . I am sure more than 50% do not know a thing. but they know about ps4 and xbox one . that is what us is doing.
I liked west people because many understand the situation. When i followed the BBC dialouge just before election campaign in US. An old lady stood up and said straight forward that it is time for US to stop creating an enemy and then defeat him and then find another one. She said first USSR then china then iraq then middleeast then asia then the whole world.That day i understood still some people in us still can think through all the crap.
You see mush i examined these facts very carefully. Like why Obama changed his stance, it is because economic condition is with him. why? cause israel lobby who sell oil and arms did good business. So did the american ones.
Job increased, so did many economic indicators. I think he would not want that to stop. So he is just playing along as the next presidents will.
And as a matter of fact Obama could not pass both arms and health bills which was important.why is that? i remember i explained it.
It is sure that Israel will be americas greatest problem ,it is destroying us like termite.
So the food west is provided is more or less has been drowned in blood of someone in the world. And it has been for the past 40-50 years.
I think someday i will provide you guys with some statistical proof about how manipulation of information has made america and others to easily do what its doing. if i have time though.lets wait and see.
And i do think west sinful place and also unlawful. Most of the people do not think social crime(sin) to be a crime. and the laws tend to bend as businessmen wants. but that is not a problem of the people i really think.
As i have always suggested that people are very much affected by situation and nature. So it does not mean i do not respect west even if i know what kind of place it is.
Macca for example was more worse than todays west. it changed. so can be west too. I want that to happen soon.And that will happen if more people understand what is going on and stand against it.
And about complication i think that is relative.it is that i can come across a general idea after deriving many things which takes a lot of words to describe. like saddle said sometimes i hope we(all taverners) could be telepathic.
thanks
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 09.15.2013, 08:57 AM.
|
|
| 09.14.2013, 04:05 PM |
|
Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
|
|
Saviour, I actually agree with you about some of that. But it would really help you to learn some communication skills. You've done a really good job of alienating potential friends and allies so far. ^^|
Instead of talking about the NSA which everybody knows about, and implying that we're ignorant, why didn't you say straightforward that you think Western media outlets aren't reporting enough about CIA drone strikes in Pakistan?
It's true that a lot of governments here are not showing enough accountability, and a lot of people are badly-informed. And democracy is a flawed system for resolving these kinds of issues. Voters tend to vote based on politicians' domestic policies much less than their foreign policy. And foreign policy is often crafted with a view toward how it will look politically at home, rather than how effective or helpful it will be internationally.
That said, we do protest strongly. I wonder if your media covers it? Protests are quite a regular occurrence, especially when a major event happens. For example, the Iraq invasion, and Afghanistan, for some modern examples, and the Vietnam war. But it is very hard for citizens to directly stop a government from doing any one particular action. First of all, not everyone is informed. Secondly, not everyone agrees. Thirdly, not everyone has time to organize or attend protests. Fourth, the direct decision-making power of the public is limited. Often the same people who are especially interested in these issues are also interested in other issues (such as climate change) and have to divide their efforts accordingly.
But it's not like the government rolls through these protests with tanks and shoots people to get them to stop protesting. (Usually).
I am not disagreeing with you. The major news media is controlled by a very small number of very wealthy people, and tends to under-report news that differs from their opinion or threatens their interests. Independent news outlets do exist, and present alternative views, but it's unlikely that you encounter them very often overseas. The fact that there exist people who consider Fox 'news' is a tragedy in its own right. Wealthy businesses and individuals create lobby groups and fake grassroots compaigns (called 'astroturfing') to spread particular views or distract attention from some issues.
These are concerns that educated people are for the most part aware of. They aren't easy problems to solve. I don't think that you have to provide us with proof of it.
At any rate, what do you want me to do to stop the USA from attacking Syria? I can tell you that only the USA is even considering attacking Syria; the rest of the West doesn't want to do it. (This is a common trend; consider the Iraq war. My country Canada did not participate, and I am proud of that. If you want to call the USA aggressive, go ahead, but please stop using vague terms like 'the West' when you only mean the USA).
I'm not even sure that not attacking Syria is the right thing. The government of Syria did roll through their protests with tanks and soldiers, and the use of chemical weapons against their own citizens is likewise unforgivable. Why is refraining from action necessarily the right thing? It's fairly clear in this case that the United Nations are only preventing military action because Russia has strategic interests in Syria. During the Rwandan genocide half a million people died, but it could have easily been stopped by Western military intervention. Don't you think it's a tragedy that nobody stopped that from happening?
As for sin not being a crime, crime is a violation of the law. Sin is up for anybody to decide what they consider sinful. So of course some things that you might consider sinful are not criminal, and some things that are criminal you might not consider to be sinful. For those countries which contain people with a mix of different backgrounds, cultures, histories, religions, and ideologies, the law can only go so far to accomodate everyone's different idea of right and wrong.
__________________
Post last edited by Mush on 09.14.2013, 04:59 PM.
|
|
| 09.14.2013, 04:45 PM |
|
Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
|
|
I argue that the only people who are really informed are the people in power. Think about it this way: if the mass media is lying, the internet is fake and everybody has an agenda, who can you trust?
The younger generation tend to lean more towards alternative media and less mainstream news sources. The older generation tend towards more mainstream sources. Sometimes these views differ, and sometimes they learn about the other's views, but not always. And therein lies the problem which I call information cherrypicking.
So in essence, what we believe to be "true" is really based on who we choose to trust, along with how much of that information we are receiving. It should be noted that due to various reasons news reporters don't always reveal everything there is to know about an issue.
In the end, we don't really know as much as we think we do mainly because we never get the facts first hand. Hence the need for transparency.
Of course, there's also the root problem that we cannot hope to change: we're human. And to err is human. Which means whatever decisions or actions we choose to carry out may not necessarily be the best, and this holds true even if the opinion is held by a majority because, let's face it, you cannot claim that the majority is always right.
__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
|
|
| 09.14.2013, 09:41 PM |
|
|
|
|
|
Online Ghibli
Ghibli Tavern is powered by WoltLab, hosted by Teragon Networks
|
|
