Ghibli Tavern - Ghibli Films:Dubs VS Subs

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Ghibli Films:Dubs VS Subs

There is a fair divide between people who think Ghibli films are better in their English dubbed form and those who prefer them subtitled. Some say that the dubs are just as good as the original, while others say that the dubs are a mangled mess that change the meaning of the movie and are nowhere as good as the Japanese version. Having watched several Ghibli films in English dubbed form, I can say that the acting is usually excellent and the messages coherent, but how do they compare to the original Japanese scripts? Namely, do any of them have any signingant changes from the Japanese script that could alter how one receives the film's message? I've heard that the Pom Poko dub is pretty botched compared to original.

04.12.2015, 02:46 AM

saviour2012
Baron

Disney dubs are preety good. And Hayao Miyazaki recommends his movies dubbed.

however some message do get altered.

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04.12.2015, 05:46 AM

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This is one of those discussions that rarely ends well, like PC vs Mac ones.

Ghibli movies are known to famously have had their meanings or content altered in the dubs, Spirited away and Kiki especially. Western soundtracks often also add music where there was silence in the original which is perhaps a different subject but another reason to avoid westernised changes. Music or the lack of it adds a considerable amount of mood, so again, like voices, this is a change to the movie concept.

I always watch in Japanese audio because that was how they were made and intended to be heard by the audience. I find the voices and the language are very attractive, and songs by female vocalists especially appealing.

I also find it has helped me actually pick up both a fair bit of Japanese language as well as a good understanding of social norms and behaviour. Sometimes when discussing certain aspects of Japanese culture on other forums I am surprised that some people have no window on the culture or society itself and invariably these same people watch dubbed English anime.

Finally the American accents just sound wrong and jarring to me and very famous actors voices like Michael Keaton in Porco helped to break the immersion even more because his voice is so well known.

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04.12.2015, 07:23 AM

Thank you for the replies. I know that Kiki and Castle In The Sky suffer from heavy "Americanization", but didn't know about the changes to Spirited Away. Would anyone mind filling me in on that? Also, are there any other notable movies that got changed during their dub? How do the dubs Ghibli makes themselves (Wind Rises, Kaguya) compare to the originals?

Post last edited by Disionity on 04.12.2015, 10:34 AM.

04.12.2015, 10:33 AM

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The very end of the Spirited Away dub has a line spoken by Chihiro I recall that shows she remembers what occurred in the spirit world, and by definition implies strongly that she grew and developed as a person because of her experiences there.

In the original that line is absent and the implication is Chihiro has no memory at all of her experiences. Thus the strength Chihiro has is inherently within her all along and isn't something she learns from.

This changes the message of the movie entirely, from "we are strong inside" to "we get stronger inside from our experiences".

I think this may be the single strongest criticism of any dubbed version of a Ghibli movie apart from the abortion that was the early hacked about dub of Nausicaa which was called "The Wind Warriors" IIRC and because of its terrible video quality led to the misunderstanding (which still does the rounds today) that Nausicaa wore no pants. The video quality was so poor you could not tell that her tight light-brown leggings were even there...

On the music side of things the lovely 50s style rock-n-roll ending theme for Kiki was replaced with a sub-par ending song for the Disney release, I have no idea why. The original music is much nicer.

I wouldn't have any problem with dubs if the production companies:

1) Used Japanese or other asian actors speaking in English (or actors of a sympathetic nationality applicable to the fantasy setting such as Italians for Porco and British for Laputa and Howl, etc)
2) Kept as much as practical of the Japanese cultural and social nuances (not applicable in fantasy films like Kiki, Laputa, Porco, etc)
3) Faithfully followed the original script, adding nothing and taking nothing away and
4) Didn't tamper with the musical score.

I may even watch the dubs if they did that!

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Post last edited by Saddletank on 04.12.2015, 11:10 AM.

04.12.2015, 11:07 AM

husky51
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When I watch anime, Ghibli or not, I always prefer the Japanese audio and English subtitles, ALWAYS!

I spent a good part of two years in Japan back in the mid-60's and got used to hearing the Japanese language and even learned quite a few words. While not fluent, I enjoy the sound and cadence of the words as spoken in Japanese as it seems to follow the scenerios much better IMO than the dubbed versions. I feel the emotion in the different scenes much better with the original dialogue. And I get a kick when I recognize a word or two that fits the scene.

I don't know, but it just gives me a much better enjoyment of the movie when this is so. I have watched a number of Ghibli's in dubbed form and return always to the subtitles versions...

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Post last edited by husky51 on 04.12.2015, 01:10 PM.

04.12.2015, 01:10 PM

I just watched Princess Mononoke with subtitles. The subtitled script is pretty much identical to the dub, with a few sentences altered. The notable difference being in the scene when Jigo and Ashitaka are having a conversation over a meal. In the dub, Jigo says, "My point is everybody dies, boy. Some now some later. From Emperor to brothel girl." and later goes on to say that the emperor has promised to give an entire hill of gold to anyone that can help him live forever. Whereas, in the subtitled version he just says he everybody dies and that "the important things do not get defeated by death". Out of curiosity, can someone tell me what that statement means exactly? What is Jigo refering to as "the most important things"? Is he talking about the gods? Perhaps the Emishi people? Or something else?

Post last edited by Disionity on 04.14.2015, 02:20 AM.

04.14.2015, 02:11 AM

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I suppose he's saying something philosophical that the person hearing him needs to answer for themselves. The listener should decide what are the important things for them and by doing so examine both their own life and the lives of others around them as well as the wider world. In the context of this film (as in many other Miyazaki films) the wider world probably refers to man's impact on nature.

Those two little speeches are wildly different though, aren't they? See how much is changed and lost in the dub? An entire philosophical look at yourself, your actions, the consequences of your life and its impact on the world around you - this is pretty much the things Miyazaki focuses his life on, so we could take this as a direct message from him to the viewer.

I'd say the dub wrecked a major point there.

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04.14.2015, 03:10 AM

saviour2012
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i think if you need detail of an outlook you read it not watch it. when you are watching something you are supposed to extract the detail from the surroundings of the movie.

yeah i just watched it now to verify that i am no english speaker but in the dub its clear that jigo is condoling ashitaka for his curse and not to lose hope cause everybody dies someday.

so i dont agree

quote:
See how much is changed and lost in the dub?An entire philosophical look at yourself, your actions, the consequences of your life and its impact on the world around you

and in all japanese movies [as many i have watched] the dialogues tend to get philosophical. i am not sure if thats good or bad.

please dont be this

and here is a argument against it

http://chrisbrecheen.blogspot.com/2013/0...-that-what.html

both are correct so i think its just better to enjoy the movie and try to understand as much from it, rather doing a thesis. totally my opinion. i know there are a lot of brilliant literature students around here. so i cant take their heat on this matter.

04.14.2015, 08:33 AM

By the way, did I miss something, or is it not really explained why Jigo wants the Forst Spirit's head in the subtitled version?

04.14.2015, 10:55 AM

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You missed my point.

Miyazaki is on record for saying that he likes to get a philosophy (his philosophy) or message across with his films, unlike some western studios that typically just like to make money. The fact he may have put a philosophical message into that scene originally whether its by image, spoken word or the colour of a banana is not relevant. The point is he intended it and in the dub it is lost; so quite obviously the dub is in error or is doing something the author didn't intend in this scene.

That is really the end of the discussion on that point.

As I said at the top of this thread, sub/dub discussions often go south fast and if you have closed your mind to seeing the possible loss we experience when a dub is incorrectly translated or even replaces what is spoken with a completely different sentence, then I am done here and will move on. Enjoy your dubs, it is a pity you will be missing critical things the director intended.

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04.14.2015, 12:53 PM

I apologize. I think I understand it now. It's quite interesting really. More or less he just threw that philosophy out there to see what one would make of it. You're saying that when one wants to know what that statement means, they must interpret and decide for themselves what's important, by examining themselves, the film, and the world around them. Perhaps Jigo is talking about the human spirit/condition, or maybe he's saying that the consequences of one's actions can't be undone by death. Jigo could be saying this to Ashitaka, as a character, to either share his wisdom, or to give a slightly encouraging message amoung all of the doom and gloom he just spurted out. Whereas in the dub they simply replaced it with a sentence that helps advance the plot. Either way, just wild and unintelligent speculation, on my end.

UPDATE: It all makes sense now. Maybe Jigo is saying this, so that Ashitaka will think about what's important to him, and thus find his will to live, which fits with the message of the film. It takes a while for these things to sink in.

Post last edited by Disionity on 04.14.2015, 10:41 PM.

04.14.2015, 01:58 PM

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So, there are three sets of English subtitles for Princess Mononoke?
[list]
[*]"Dubtitles", subtitles taken directly from the dub script.
[*]The literal English translation from the Miramax DVD.
[*]Another literal English translation on the Japanese Blu-Ray.
[/list]

What are the notable differences between the last two sets of subtitles? Does the Disney re-issue (blue label version) of the Princess Mononoke DVD use the same subtitle tracks as the Miramax one?

04.16.2015, 08:49 AM

Roarkiller
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Strictly speaking, both are affected by a loss of "intended messages" because, hey, they're both English.

There's no such thing as a perfect translation. One less so than the other, which makes a good argument point, but the root problem doesn't change.

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04.20.2015, 10:59 AM

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Roar, there can easily be perfect translations since it is possible to convey the exact nuance across a different language. This is done professionally in very tight legal documents every day, cases where correct meaning is far more important than entertainment media.

It really is not a problem for a skilled translator or a fluent speaker of both tongues. Its when a whole stack of local specific stuff gets spoken that things get more complex. You can discuss Shinto religion in Japanese and go on about the characters and symbolism of foxes and such which can be directly translated to English but the meanings get lost due to the local mythology and such not being understood by the English speaker.

There's many translation issues of this kind in an anime like Monogatari which is 90% wordplay, grammar-based humour and double entendres and such. You can turn it into exactly compatible English but it still won't "mean" much to an English listener because the cultural understanding is lacking.

Its in cases like this that I think subtitles in English do "less damage" (if you want to term it like that) than spoken English dialogue.

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04.20.2015, 11:50 AM

husky51
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Well put, Saddles, well put, indeed...

Many of us older people in the primarily English-speaking world grew up with tales like "The Three Little Pigs", Little Red Riding Hood", "Humpty Dumpty", etc and games like "This Little Piggy Went to Market" and other games that adults played with children in our formative years. Or

"Mistress Mary, quite contrary,
How does your garden grow.
With Silver bells and cockle shells
and pretty maids all in a row."

Now when I was growing up, we sang, recited or played these little games, but as I grew older I found out that many, many of them had hidden references to things that happened in the past. The above rhyme, iirc, refers to a Queen named Mary. I forget offhand the full meaning of the rhyme, but if I heard a reference to it, I would know more about the meaning meant in the dialogue than say, an Italian. For one thing, how does 'cockle shells' sound in another language and how many people even know what a cockle is? Cockles are mentioned in 'Marnie', btw.

To expect someone from Japan, Korea, Germany or France, to name just a few, to understand references to these things in a movies' dialogue in another language just doesn't come across, likewise in the other direction. How many people, even English speakers, who grew up playing "Ring around the Rosie" know that it is a reference to the 'Black Plague' that decimated much of Europe? The 'ash it, ash it, they all fall down', from my understanding, referred to the sneezing and falling down and dying from the disease. Now I would get the reference immediately if I heard even part of the verse, but someone from China, for example, probably wouldn't.

I had never heard of the fable about a girl being born in a bamboo stalk and growing up. Not until I started reading about Princess Kaguya. I'll say no more than I have about those two movies, in defference to those who haven't yet seen them.

AHH! I got wordy again, I'm sorry, lol. But I do agree with Saddles post.

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04.20.2015, 01:07 PM