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arren18
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...and there it is. Distraught would be an understatement.
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 06.24.2016, 01:03 AM |
   
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saviour2012
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**** just got real 
officially Britain is out of the International Big Picture, good for China and India
I dont know why it happened, maybe conservative thinking is again coming back to Europe.
I am surprised that people chose it, many industries around the world will take a hit. All the countries will need to renegotiate many deals with UK. I dont know if it will turn out like they hoped to. Only time will tell
my deep condolences for those who are upset.
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Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 06.24.2016, 04:24 AM.
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| 06.24.2016, 04:24 AM |
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Saddletank
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Personally I am delighted with the result. Its what I've hoped for for years. Now we have control of our future back. No more billions paid to unelected officials in Bruxelles.
EDIT: AND we get rid of Cameron too! Awesome!
(sorry for the political rant but I am so happy!)
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 06.24.2016, 04:32 AM.
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| 06.24.2016, 04:30 AM |
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Kazegami
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And now we can look forward to... Boris Johnson? Osbourne? I may be sick.
Well... Time for Scotland to make a new bid for freedom, methinks.
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| 06.24.2016, 05:06 AM |
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saviour2012
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@saddle
i am just pointing to a source, not trying to contradict you or argue with you
http://infacts.org/mythbusts/uk-doesnt-s...ussels-55m-day/
and the UK GDP is 2.678 trillion(2013) USD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y
it is stupid, for me talking about UK, but if you remember i said about the up-rise of conservative thinking in Europe maybe a year or two before, which can lead to disaster(because of the division). I dont like how things are progressing so far, i hoped more positively. The next elections are France, Germany(if mercel does not stand for the election or loses it, then again another unstable period will come in the europe) and most importantly US( there is lunatic named trump) . These elections will determine a path that will lead to stability or global misfortune. I just hope our generation does not face a World War or something like that.
and almost all the time in history it is the europe that has brought about the global suffering of people.
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Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 06.24.2016, 05:34 AM.
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| 06.24.2016, 05:07 AM |
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arren18
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You're right about conservative attitudes becoming popular in Europe, saviour. The rise of right-wing organisations has been a real problem in the last few years across Europe.
It was a monumentally bad decision. It doesn't give anybody their "future" back, it just grasps at some imagined past, which younger generations will now have to live with.
I totally agree with Kaz. The thought of Johnson as a prime minister makes me a bit ill, and Scottish independence can't come soon enough.
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| 06.24.2016, 11:03 AM |
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saviour2012
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@kaz and arren
i can only sympathize with you
in my opinion boris is the UK version of trump
camerron was a patriot even my father is saying that. he could have just resigned right now, rather he said he will look for the smooth transition.
and@kaz right now i dont feel so inclined to say that scotland should stay with Britain, cause the main reason why the vote did not work before was as far as i remember this specific issue that UK enjoys versatile economic freedom in EU that for scotland it will be foolish to leave. But right now it is just that(there will not be any freedom like before). I can only imagine the nightmare govt has to face to renegotiate all the deals.
EU will poke at UK now for no reason at all. I dont think British people will be able to tolerate the humiliation the EU leaders will do to them.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016...-european-union
So scotland might leave the UK and join with the EU. but i dont know if will increase its chances cause it is small.
I think the people around the world is deeply moved by the incident.
a lot of uncertainty, and a lot of my relatives live in UK so i am kind of worried about them if there will be massive job cuts in the coming years.
and If UK chooses the Norway path then all the things the leave campaigners said will just be worthless.
So everyone will be looking at UK in the coming years how they recover.
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Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 06.24.2016, 12:28 PM.
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| 06.24.2016, 11:32 AM |
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Saddletank
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016...-european-union
"no renegotiation"? Wishful thinking, a majority of the British people do not want renegotiation. It appears some EU leaders feel insulted by the decision of the British people, more fool them.
There are noises from the Dutch that they will be the next to hold an exit referendum.
In my view the Brussels bureaucrats overstepped the line in requiring member states to submit to EU laws rather than define their own. Sovereignty still counts for much.
Clause 50 will be enacted at whatever pace it is necessary to enact it, however long that takes.
The next 2 to 3 years will be interesting as the British government decides which EU laws it will repeal and which it will choose to keep. I feel however that any UK govt that does not amend our immigration laws will not last in power.
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| 06.24.2016, 12:49 PM |
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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Clause 50 will be enacted at whatever pace it is necessary to enact it, however long that takes.
The next 2 to 3 years will be interesting as the British government decides which EU laws it will repeal and which it will choose to keep. I feel however that any UK govt that does not amend our immigration laws will not last in power.
and if they do not abide by that immigration law then kiss goodbye to Norway style policy(free market)
and
for your information it is not in the hand of UK to set the pace, it is mandatory to set things right within two years, if UK cant then UK exits directly. Then you have to go through WTO to do these deals. As a member of a third world country i can understand the pain of such lengthy processes.
And if one think that only the vote has been taken no actions has been taken he is greatly wrong. Businesses do their work in the long term say 10 years 20 years. So no matter how much you hold the decision it is not going to work cause it is a global phenomena people know, you are right now not part of EU unofficially. Taking delayed official action will not cause any significant development for better environment. its just like Burying your head in the sand to solve the problem
Several companies has already declared job cuts and reduced profit.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
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| 06.24.2016, 01:24 PM |
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arren18
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I suppose the Dutch people you mention, Saddles, are the likes of Geert Wilders, who compared the Qu'ran to Mein Kampf? Other like-minded people include France's National Front, and I'm not sure that giving them ideas is really all that good.
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| 06.25.2016, 09:35 AM |
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Saddletank
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This is getting a bit out of hand. I was referring to a general upswell of opinion from citizens within the United Provinces such as a couple of people I know online, not any neo-nazis. I think we can leave those kinds of subjects aside (and in your own prejudices).
In any case stronger national identity and a preference for more control of your own laws =/= fascism.
Saviour, you're misinformed. We can invoke 50 tomorrow or simply choose never to. Two years is the maximum time we have to agree exit deals after we invoke 50. But if we do not invoke it? No-one has ever done this so we are the guinea pig, nothing is set in stone. A great deal of communicating must now begin and if people are mature and reasonable about this it could be possible to bend or extend time limits.
One thing that is absolutely key is tighter control of our own borders and stiffer immigration laws, no government can last if they don't enact laws of that nature.
Trade won't collapse. The UK still has access to the single EU market trade partner. We just have to negotiate deals with it.
The demographic spread of voting was interesting - people of my age group and older who knew Britain before 1975 and went through the full pain of entering the EU and have endured all the false promises and failure to deliver pretty much everything that was sold to us mostly voted to leave. Most of the younger people who know only adult life in the last 10 years or so voted to stay.
My generation were sold a pack of economic lies. We are glad to be rid of the bureaucracy of Brussels and to be able to re-establish laws that matter to us.
quote:
Several companies has already declared job cuts and reduced profit.
Links?
People are saying job cuts as well as job growth, some are saying loss of profits, some are saying more. It is simply too early to tell right now and anyone who makes rushed statements cannot possibly be basing what they say or do on anything solid.
This is unique and we are only 36 hours into it. Nothing is certain.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 06.25.2016, 12:16 PM.
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| 06.25.2016, 11:59 AM |
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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
This is getting a bit out of hand. I was referring to a general upswell of opinion from citizens within the United Provinces such as a couple of people I know online, not any neo-nazis. I think we can leave those kinds of subjects aside (and in your own prejudices).
In any case stronger national identity and a preference for more control of your own laws =/= fascism.
Saviour, you're misinformed. We can invoke 50 tomorrow or simply never choose to. It can take years to engineer full exit policies and two years is the minimum according to BBC articles I have been reading. It could be up to six years. No-one has ever done this so we are the guinea pig, nothing is set in stone.
One thing that is absolutely key is tighter control of our own borders and stiffer immigration laws, no government can last if they don't enact laws of that nature.
The demographic spread of voting was interesting - people of my age group and older who knew Britain before 1975 and went through the full pain of entering the EU and have endured all the false promises and failure to deliver pretty much everything that was sold to us mostly voted to leave. Most of the younger people who know only adult life in the last 10 years or so (and know no different) generally voted to stay.
My generation were sold a pack of economic lies. We are glad to be rid of the bureaucracy of Brussels and to be able to re-establish laws that matter to us.
quote:
Several companies has already declared job cuts and reduced profit.
Links?
People are saying job cuts as well as job growth, some are saying loss of profits, some are saying more. It is simply too early to tell right now and anyone who makes rushed statements cannot possibly be basing what they say or do on anything solid.
This is unique and we are only 36 hours into it. Nothing is certain.
i accept your conditions saddles and i respect your vote
------------
however as in the case of saying i am misinformed, you are not correct. You have to understand the global situation
1. UK is leaving EU
2. In Some other countries some people like UK also want to leave EU
3. EU is definitely a exceptionally fragile framework
4. So the EU leaders has to take initiative that leaving EU is very painful by
a) Making sure the national who caused turmoil does not enjoy the full benefits
b) Giving them less time so that the confusion is at its minimum
c) Giving other Govt. the message that dont try to do the same using the rights and powers given to the EU
These are stories from one side. The other stories are
1. UK has to set up all the deals done through EU
2. That will take time
a) Best estimate is at least seven years
b) Worst guess is 10 years plus (for example Switzerland)
3. So if you think UK will take 7+2 = 9 years to do these. To say differently enact article 50 after say 5-7 years i dont think that other EU members will be pleased. And most importantly if you understand that this vote has no legal binding that means it is the conservative govt. that must oblige(unless they do not fear public backlash) by this vote. If after as you said 5-7 years in new election Labour Party comes, they are not legally bonded by this. So arren you guys can try to make the process as lengthy as possible then vote for labour party with this specific agenda that no brexit .  LOL . I should not laugh but its funny to think how easy it is to do something in western world, its cool. Joke aside i dont think it is in anyway possible to postpone it(inact article 50) indefinitely. If the govt can do it then yes, it is legal. But the idea should be insane for the other leaders
quote:
Links?
come-on man
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brex...e-a7099641.html
https://www.theguardian.com/business/liv...it-live-updates
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016...e-up-uk-economy
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/120f17d4-3a17-...l#axzz4CbnXncnX
the last one is special read that atleast
and please if you have not seen the video see it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y
quote:
It is simply too early to tell right now and anyone who makes rushed statements cannot possibly be basing what they say or do on anything solid.
This is unique and we are only 36 hours into it. Nothing is certain.
this i absolutely agree
however the bbc article you read if you can pass it, it might make me better understand it. what i understand 2 years is the maximum time allowed to renegotiate. it means you remain a EU member in that time period. The immigrants will come in that two years and you will pay money to EU. and if you fail to get a deal, you are back to square one. Now do all the things through WTO like other countries. and that will be very devastating. Most of the intellectuals were against it, so dont expect they will be forthcoming like cameron, they might if they are ultra patriotic. So the primary task is to unite people. if the politicians can do it then yes its possible that Britain will not suffer tremendously. But i dont see it coming from people like boris who play hate politics.
NB: I studied seven hours on this matter last day after waking up to the news. I consider myself a global citizen. i think EU citizen are the only real example of that. Mixing with other culture and people can be great. And it does not hurt your economy , rather it makes it stronger. This will help China, Germany generally to become even more powerful. It will definitely create a great distance between the people of Europe, which is historically bad. And with that this is my last post in this matter
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 06.25.2016, 12:48 PM.
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| 06.25.2016, 12:43 PM |
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Saddletank
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I am nor denying that Brexit has affected global markets, currencies etc. What I am asking for is a link to those companies who can prove they will cut jobs and lose money because of Brexit.
No-one can possibly say that based on Brexit because Brexit has not happened yet. As you said, we are in the EU for another two years at a minimum so the effects of us leaving will not be certain yet.
If a company is saying it will cut jobs and/or lose money because of Brexit then its either saying empty words just to have something to say, is laying a smokescreen, is covering up its own failures while within the EU market or it is lying.
That was my point.
Yes, this is a good opportunity, and one that has been due for years, for the EU to take a long hard objective look at itself.
As to you being misinformed, either you are, or you've read the correct information but misunderstood it or you've read incorrect information because what you said in your post above does not agree with the facts.
Our vote is fully legally binding. We live in a democracy and this was a lawfully enacted referendum. The government must do as the people wish. Any future government is always bound by prior legislation, otherwise we'd live in anarchy.
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| 06.25.2016, 01:22 PM |
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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
As to you being misinformed, either you are, or you've read the correct information but misunderstood it or you've read incorrect information because what you said in your post above does not agree with the facts.
Our vote is fully legally binding. We live in a democracy and this was a lawfully enacted referendum. The government must do as the people wish. Any future government is always bound by prior legislation, otherwise we'd live in anarchy.
it is always painful to talk with you
you dont understand what the notion legally binding means
these following two sentences are different
1. They have to to do it because it is a law
2. They have to do it because they have been chosen by people and they wont get vote if they dont do what people told them to do.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016...eign-parliament
and definitely other govt can totally ignore it if they win by majority, as it is basically the same thing. Not that it will happen. something is called a legislation after it has been accepted or acted upon by the legislature. From your theory if the article 50 is postponed then it is not a legislation thus new govt can ignore it as infact they won by majority.
and it is theoretical. everything said previously is. But most of the time theory proves to be correct.
and the brexit affect in the past two days itself can cause reduced profit and job cuts. Global Market is very fragile. Thats why the fall of lehman brothers created the 2008 recession. did i not told you to watch the inside job documentary
do this simple math
for every import say you needed 3 pounds
now for the same good you need 3.3 pounds
your GDP is 2.6 Trillion US or 1.8 Trillion pound convert it to reduced price, so any industry getting imported goods paid more money to get the same product
why it is important cause UK Imports more than it Exports.
i hope to see the market will stabilize but how much that will determine the fate of people
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 06.25.2016, 03:08 PM.
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| 06.25.2016, 01:48 PM |
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arren18
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Saddles - I only mentioned those groups because you so vaguely said "the Dutch", and the Dutch people that come to mind as openly celebrating Brexit and calling for them to leave the EU to are indeed the ones I said. I don't believe it was uncalled for.
quote:
The demographic spread of voting was interesting - people of my age group and older who knew Britain before 1975 and went through the full pain of entering the EU and have endured all the false promises and failure to deliver pretty much everything that was sold to us mostly voted to leave. Most of the younger people who know only adult life in the last 10 years or so (and know no different) generally voted to stay.
My generation were sold a pack of economic lies. We are glad to be rid of the bureaucracy of Brussels and to be able to re-establish laws that matter to us.
Fair enough. Incidentally - and correct me if I'm wrong - but it's not the 70s. And the UK hasn't been cryogenically frozen for the last 40 years. Things have actually happened in the meantime, all kinds of changes, some for the good and some not. You can't expect that everything will just carry on as if the country had never joined the EU in the first place now that the UK, and indeed the world, is a very different place. And I think it's extremely unfair that the bitterness of older generations should trump younger generations' hopes and opportunities. You might've been lied to about the EU before, but why would you accept the most recent batch of lies instead?
Next, saviour is quite right that the referendum isn't legally binding. Some referenda are - for example the voting reform referendum from a few years ago - but this one isn't. Realistically, no government could afford to disregard it, but you're wrong in thinking that they legally must act upon the result.
As for job cuts/relocations, here are a couple of examples. It's up to you whether to trust them or insist that they're untrue.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/120f17d4-3a17-...l#axzz4CfpkRzXV
http://news.efinancialcareers.com/uk-en/...dancies-brexit/
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Post last edited by arren18 on 06.26.2016, 05:04 AM.
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| 06.26.2016, 05:04 AM |
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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by arren18
I think it's extremely unfair that the bitterness of older generations should trump younger generations' hopes and opportunities.
i dont think thats right areen cause younger people did not vote. people above 50-55 voted 95%. it means all of them went to the booths. where as people in the age range 20-30 went around 70-75 percent. and the difference is only around a million votes.
its just that western youth is not politically motivated, surprising we talked about this just some months ago in the anime thread that most youth are somewhat lazy(not literally) nowadays.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 06.26.2016, 05:32 AM.
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| 06.26.2016, 05:30 AM |
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arren18
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I'm not sure where you got those figures from, because from what I can see, the turnout was a fair bit lower than that for everyone: https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/imag...n&width=600
And you can't deny that younger generations were far more likely to vote remain, so whatever the turnout, my point about differing motivations is still reasonable. http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprod...a624_by_age.png
EDIT: You know, I think I'll leave it at that. I didn't exactly make any final points, but right now this is all we're talking about on the Tavern, and I'm sure none of us want that to be the case.
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Post last edited by arren18 on 06.26.2016, 07:41 AM.
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| 06.26.2016, 06:54 AM |
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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by arren18
I'm not sure where you got those figures from, because from what I can see, the turnout was a fair bit lower than that for everyone: https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/imag...n&width=600
And you can't deny that younger generations were far more likely to vote remain, so whatever the turnout, my point about differing motivations is still reasonable. http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprod...a624_by_age.png
my figures might be wrong cause i took them from newspapers as these tend to smooth the surface(like 87-88% is 90% etc etc.), however the general idea is almost exactly expressed in that picture of yours. and this one stops at 50, if you follow that line you should get the idea about turnout rates after 50 which i mentioned. but again my figures are not exact as i took them from newspaper.
and i definitely agree that youth wanted to stay but they did not vote, i was highlighting on this issue because it is of great interest in academics and mine
http://www.economist.com/news/united-sta...-lets-set-world
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/econom...ing/background/
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 06.26.2016, 08:03 AM.
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| 06.26.2016, 07:46 AM |
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foreignfilmfreak
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Why do less younger people go vote? During the Canadian elections last fall we had a large youth voter turnout, including myself. My local voting area was quite small but many university students who couldn't vote in their hometowns voted there with me. But there was a lot of stress by university students for young voters to get out there.
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| 06.27.2016, 10:53 AM |
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arren18
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I suspect a big part of it is not feeling well enough informed. I remember when I first voted, it still seemed bizarre to me that I was actually able to vote. I think the prospect of having a say in such big decisions (especially when you get taught nothing about politics up to that time) it daunting for a lot of young people.
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| 06.27.2016, 11:17 AM |
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