What obama said is not very encouraging.

see for youself

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/19...kusaolp00000009

really pathetic

i wont say anything bad from now because almost all the things i negative things about west i said is becoming a reality. I will just stop analyzing incidents and then i wont be able to draw any predictions. Its sad for me that these are getting a reality.

__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Good. It isn't more dangerous than alcohol.

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What he said makes perfect sense and I agree with almost every word of it. If alcohol and cigarettes are legal, there is absolutely no reason marijuana should not also be legal.

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I like tea!

Yeah i agree with the others, there is lots of evidence that marijuana isn't worse than alcohol or cigarettes, and has many medicinal purposes.

Its taken a lot anyway i many countries even when its legal. Its much better to have it legal and regulated, so the government can tax it and try to limit quantities of usage.

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I don't see any reason wrong with it, because I'd love for people to stop shoving it in my face all the time or talking about it all the time if making it legal would make them stop. Then again, alcohol is legal and they still like to shove that.. I'd just prefer my apartment building not to smell like it's been infested by a parade of skunks (which it does 3/4s of the time even without it being legal).

answer if you want, those who are taking it positively. I want to ask how many of you have taken(inhaled or whatever) it.

I dont want to interfere with your personal matters i just want to know if consuming it effected your judgement.

its ganja!!!!! guys. i understand many differences between cultures but something that is in so many ways injurious to health i dont see how that can be legal. and its not my view as a muslim. islam prohibits any kind of intoxication by any kind of material unless it is done for medical treatment.

this drug is from asia and people used it here for various reason[all reasons are bad and stupid].

and it is almost hundred percent sure that people who take it regularly will try to take other drugs such as cocaine, morphine ,LSD ,heroine upon availability and his wealth. many of these has medical purpose too. lets unban them too.

But its not true that its same as cigarrete. search google and medical directories.

and it is legalized because of this

quote:

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It is believed to generate an estimated $36 billion market in US

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__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

I was never a heavy user. Back when I had a job that stressed me out on a daily basis, I would come home and have a half a glass off wine and one marijuana cigarette. I relaxed and was able to enjoy the rest of my day.

I don't believe that marijuana is a harmful drug. My only concern is that it may (and I stress MAY) lead to to harder drugs. Myself? I never had the urge to try hard drugs in any way.

The main reason I stopped smoking pot was because the last time I used it, I was affected by whatever had been added to it. About that time the government was spraying pot fields with something that affected the crop (Perquat?)and some dealers added stuff to increase the potency or 'high' from the pot cigarette.

Finally, at the age of 28, with the birth of my first child, I quit smoking altogether.

I know that my children have smoked pot in their teens, at least the two boys have. I'll have to ask my daughter the next time I talk to her, but I believe that she did as well.

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As long as people have this belief that so-and-so is not addictive, not bad when taken in moderation, not as dangerous as other substances, they will always believe that whatever they are taking in is not harmful and should be made legal.

It doesn't matter that there are hundreds of medical reports listing the dangers of taking such substances.

It doesn't matter that there are thousands of people and communities suffering from its existence.

It doesn't matter that any perceived "benefits" are far outweighed by the negatives.

We already live in a world where milk causes cancer and soybeans causes virility and should be restricted, while red wine and chocolate are both good for the heart and are encouraged.

We already live in a world where it's okay to consume large amount of food and drink without care, and displace entire villages to build dams for the good of the majority.

It doesn't matter.

Because that's just human nature.

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:

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Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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I see from re-reading my post that I didn't make myself clear. I believe that marijuana is no more dangerous that alcohol, but that both can be dangerous with mis-use.

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I have to say that the line "no more dangerous than alcohol" says two things:

1) Alcohol is dangerous
2) These drugs are just as bad

So rather than adding a second wrong, why not classify alcohol as a drug and make it illegal too?

And tobacco as well since that's a proven killer.

These would be the morally correct things to do, however we live in an amoral society and given how the banning of alcohol actually increased crime significantly in America in the 1920s its clear than making it illegal would have serious consequences. The issue is also that many people partake alcohol responsibly and moderately and a huge industry (pubs, restaurants, hotels) relies on it as a product and income source.

Politicians have been trying to ban tobacco for decades, removing at leat its advertising but the tobacco companies are huge and insidious and powerful businesses and some even pay politicians so its a dangerous game to play against them.

Given the monstrous mess that alcohol and tobacco cause in society I am quite frankly not sure that legalising marujana is at all significant. Its been legal in the Netherlands for many years and doesn't seem to have caused a problem there.

And yes, I partook of marujana in my youth a few times at parties.

quote:

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Originally posted by saviour2012
and it is almost hundred percent sure that people who take it regularly will try to take other drugs such as cocaine, morphine ,LSD ,heroine upon availability and his wealth.

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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

quote:

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Originally posted by Roarkiller
It doesn't matter that there are thousands of people and communities suffering from its existence.

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I like tea!

@husky: No, you're pretty clear. The problem is that governments aren't making this part clear. In fact, the way I see it, they're legalising it so less people will be convicted for it, and hence less people in jail.

@Orphic: I both agree and disagree with you (yes, I've read the history books).

The problem is that the issue is a "damned if we do damned if we don't" issue, where no matter which route society takes, there will always be its own unique set of issues.

On one hand, very few (level-headed) people can confidently say that any of these drugs, including alcohol and tobacco, are beneficial to the human body and society in general. This is why bills are passed to ban or control the consumption of narcotics, and as you rightly put it, the reason why drug rings are in wide existence.

On the other hand, you have to understand as well that narcotics would not have been banned if their dangers weren't recognized in the first place. Parts of Alaska, for example, are facing serious community problems because alcohol is ruining the community, with or without the ban. Likewise, opium deaths were very widespread in Asia, and later Europe. Legalising the drug would kill drug rings, but will also cause widespread addiction problems because the drugs are so easy to get, similar to alcohol and gambling.

Also, saying that the government can control the narcotics is too optimistic a view. The age ban on alcohol and tobacco hasn't stopped kids from drinking or smoking.

So in summary, it's really a question of whether the government wishes to allow crime to grow or for narcotics use to grow. Both ways obviously will affect society in a bad way.

It's an incredibly complex dilemma.

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:

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Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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Legalize, regulate, and let consenting adults make their own decisions where they don't infringe of the freedoms of others.

We should be mindful of making society "safe and healthy" and protecting us from ourselves. That way lies dystopia.

Drugs are pretty much as old as human beings, and even remote societies use their own versions. Might as well make it them as safe as possible for everyone. With recreational drug use being illegal for the large part, even doing studies to test the safety of such drugs are undermined.

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I'm just wondering Saviour, do you think cigarettes are okay?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Roarkiller
@husky: No, you're pretty clear. The problem is that governments aren't making this part clear. In fact, the way I see it, they're legalising it so less people will be convicted for it, and hence less people in jail.

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I like tea!

quote:

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Originally posted by fenkashi
Legalize, regulate, and let consenting adults make their own decisions where they don't infringe of the freedoms of others.

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__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Considering you put down Orphic's point about the scientific consensus so quickly and said that the long-term effects aren't known, you seem awfully confident in your repeated assertions that it's such a dangerous thing.

Truly, the most dangerous aspects of illegal drugs are the crime that surrounds them and the lack of regulation. Because they are illegal, those that seek them must go to people connected with smuggling, which inevitably is associated with organised crime. Allowing average people to fund gangsters isn't going to solve any problems. You gave the headache analogy (confusingly linked to the Taliban?), but I would suggest it's better to use the analogy of treating the cause instead of the symptoms. If you just keep attempting to fight organised criminals when all the while they're getting more money and resources, it won't actually solve the problem, but if you cut off that money supply, they will be weakened much more seriously.

Because there is no regulation on these substances, people don't know what they're actually getting. What they buy from dealers may not be trustworthy, and often the other, more dangerous things contained in these variations can cause big problems. There are various rules on what goes into other consumer products, but obviously no such rules on illegal things.

Consider also the problems for drug addicts. If they have an addiction, the only way for them to fuel the addiction is to go to these potentially dangerous people, and the worse their condition becomes, the more seriously they might get involved with organised crime. Also, if something that's causing you a problem is against the law, you would of course be far less inclined to seek legitimate assistance. If they were legal then people could get help with their problems without fear of either the law or criminals.

I notice you've compared the crime of taking illegal drugs to extremely serious things - I mentioned the Taliban comment already, but you also came up with murder, rape and theft. Do you honestly consider drug use to be somehow equivalent to those?

And since you asked, I've tried it. I lived to tell the tale.

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Drugs are bad. Don't use them.


I agree a lot with Fen's philosophy that consenting adults can decide what to do if it doesn't harm other people. But Saviour has a very good point that it's easy to make bad decisions you'll later regret if there's a tacit endorsement of those decisions by society. Not everyone using drugs is a responsible adult who understands the consequences of using drugs.

And I don't look forward to seeing headlines of car accidents caused by drivers who were high on marijuana. Not that that's any worse than drunk driving, mind you.


I do wonder about legalization, though. I wonder whether it will increase the amount of drugs consumed, or whether it might not do that. It seems like the drugs being illegal has not been an effective deterrent so far, maybe because if someone is irresponsible enough to be using drugs, they aren't thinking about potential negative consequences already. They probably don't imagine themselves getting arrested, just like they probably don't imagine themselves becoming addicted. (I actually do think that marijuana might be an addictive substance, not least because I have a friend who struggled with quitting. I haven't read the latest research though).

Also, criminalization of drugs does have severe societal consequences of its own, possibly as bad as the consequences of drug consumption itself. For example, a lot of young people end up in prison. At that point, those kids' lives are effectively condemned -- the chances that they'll go on to become productive members of society (let alone president of the USA) are significantly lower, and the chances they'll become criminals goes way up. It doesn't help that there's a major racial bias in the USA regarding who ends up in prison for using drugs. And criminalization spawns a black market that supports criminal gangs and smugglers, which leads to a major increase in violence.


So, anyway, I don't know for sure whether it's a good thing or not. I think there's a strong enough argument in favour of legalization that it would be worth experimenting with the policy to actually measure the outcomes and see what happens. The nice thing about this kind of issue is that it can be tested and, if it turns out to be a bad idea, the drugs can be made illegal again.


Sort of like how they experimented with making alcohol illegal in the 1920s.


Along a somewhat-related note, in Vancouver we introduced a safe-injection program, which was a clinic run by the government that offered a safe place for cocaine addicts to inject drugs. Although the drugs themselves are still illegal, the main problem was that addicts were sharing contaminated needles and contracting terrible diseases like HIV. The program was very controversial and has been closely studied since its introduction, but overall the results have been extremely positive. Drug use has not increased, and addicts are dying less and committing fewer crimes. The police have been strongly supportive of the program.


Basically, it's a complicated issue -- even if you're strongly opposed to drug use (like I am), it doesn't necessarily mean that legalization is a bad policy decision.


Edit: Sorry that I haven't had time to read this full thread and take everyone's argument into account. Hopefully I can come back to it later.

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quote:

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Originally posted by arren18
Considering you put down Orphic's point about the scientific consensus so quickly and said that the long-term effects aren't known, you seem awfully confident in your repeated assertions that it's such a dangerous thing.

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__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

quote:

---

Originally posted by arren18
Considering you put down Orphic's point about the scientific consensus so quickly and said that the long-term effects aren't known, you seem awfully confident in your repeated assertions that it's such a dangerous thing.

I notice you've compared the crime of taking illegal drugs to extremely serious things - I mentioned the Taliban comment already, but you also came up with murder, rape and theft. Do you honestly consider drug use to be somehow equivalent to those?

And since you asked, I've tried it. I lived to tell the tale.

---

__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi