Posted by Saddletank on 05.30.2014, 12:05 PM:
quote: Originally posted by saviour2012
But you now say you want me to describe how i joined the two.
I did that earlier but it takes much time to do that because it took me hours of study and thinking to get those points.
This is how much effort you have to put into good solid debating. I didn't say it was easy.
It was you who started this debate by answering my first post, now you say its not worth your time.
I am happy to spend a lot of effort to try to convince anyone that belief in god is wrong. There is no such thing as god. If you don't want to be a part of these debates THEN DON'T START THEM.
quote: Both you and orphic are almost self righteous, you think your careful judgement is the morality.
*We* are self-righteous? I am judgemental? I thought you were the one who claimed to know my mind a couple of posts back. I've been a part of organised religion and at one time in my life held firm beliefs. I no longer do because I could not reconcile the contradictions and inconsistencies in Christianity and with and in other religions. Among other things I found too many holes in their principles, too many different beliefs from people around me and too little evidence in their history to withstand careful study; there were also too many sub-sets of different teachings within Christianity and not just the Roman Catholic -vs- Protestant divide, but many divisions with the Protestant church.
For example, many Christians accept and believe in dispensations and covenants, many other Christians do not and still hold to old testament teachings - they cannot both be right. Christians argue over how many dispensations there are, the number ranges between 3 and 37 (!!) BTW, as you claim Islam and Christianity are the same you know exactly what I'm talking about when I mention dispensations and covenants don't you? Because according to you, they're a part of your religion.
It struck me after about ten years of being a part of this that there actually is no such thing as a single religion. There are billions and billions of religions on earth and each one is beleived by just a single person. We are not a hive-mind, we can never fully understand a person next to us, not our neighbour, not our children, not even our life-long partners. Each of us soaks up our own experiences and deploys them back towards the world as our actions and words and beliefs. In this way each of us reads a holy book, tries to understand it as best we can and comes to a point where we have a belief, but it cannot be quite the same as anyone else's belief. One practitioner of Islam may live a life of loving peaceful kindness among Christians and he knows that is what god wants him to do; another hijacks a jet plane with 200 innocent people aboard and deliberately crashes it into a tall building with thousands more innocent people inside, and he too is convinvced he is doing what god wants.
They cannot both be right.
Yet - they are, because their religion to them is their truth. A while back Roarkiller said that religion is not to do with the people. What I'm saying proves that to be wrong, religion consist only of people. And people screw religion up.
Its a Schrodinger's cat situation. The cat in the box is either alive or dead but we can't know that until we open the box and look at the cat. You say god can exist without people to beleive in him, but I say that a god can only exist if he has believers. If no humans exist, how can we say if god exists? God's whole purpose in creating the earth was to create a place for his ultimate creation - man - to have life. Without man there is no reason for god to create a universe and put planets in it full of non-sentient life. God, like the cat, can only be alive (true) or dead (false) if men are there to take a look at the evidence (believe in him). Why would any god create a universe and a world in which only simple (non-self-aware) life exists and nothing can know he's there? Or believe he's there?
You claim that Islam and Christianity worship the same god, yet Christians believe in a god consisting of three persons with Jesus being god along with the father and the holy spirit. This is in direct contradiction to Islam's teachings that god is one only and Jesus was an ordinary man, not god. Those two facts cannot be denied and Jesus as god is the main cornerstone of Christainity. There is no way that Islam and Christianity can be said to hold the same beliefs concerning god. Ergo they cannot be the same religion and one cannot be a sub-set of beliefs of the other.
I would not say I am self-righteous, I just know what I know, beleive what I beleive and have experienced what I have experienced. Even if there is a god I do not want to be a part of any organised religion because all of them are corrupt and wicked acts are done in their name, whether you personally beleive Islam is peaceful or not isn't relevant, the facts of 9/11, 7/7 and many other atrocities cannot be denied and religion is the root behind all this evil.
Those are a few of my belief cornerstones. My mantras if you like (and to keepo us on topic). I would be delighted if you personally could make the effort to present to me words that would make me change my mind. Don't link me to a bunch of books I'm not interested in reading, convince me yourself. Its a calling from Allah, you can't refuse.
quote: If you cant give enough effort to read a book how can i assume that you will give enough effort to understand my posts.
I already explained why. Go back and read what I said, the answer to that question is there for you already.
quote: My point is i want to ask both of you if there is anything reasonable that i can provide that you will turn to islam. If not then i should not waste my time debating.
Is that why you enter these debates on the Tavern? To try and convert people to Islam? Don't you think its enough to widen your own horizons by seeing the world as others see it? Is that not useful in some manner?
Also - that's shocking - you say that intelligent debate is a waste of your time otherwise? Doesn't Islam teach you to be patient and open-minded and converse with others?
You still didn't answer my question above. Your evasion is noted.
quote:
religion is NOT the cause of any kind problem it is the people.
They are one and the same thing. Yes a religion without people cannot do any evil, but then a religion without people cannot do anything at all. Orphic made a solid argument above why religion can't even exist without people, so don't keep going back on old arguments we've resolved already. In order to exist a religion must have believers in it. Plants and dogs and toads are not going to do it. But bring people into the equation and the corruption and evil begins. Moses receives from god the only commandments people need to live by and off the people go and worship other idols. Bit of a bummer that, isn't it?
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