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Phyrra
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Registration Date: 04.24.06
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So Shiawase, you actually believe that Johna was swallowed by a whale, and lived inside the whale's stomach, then came out again a little while afterwards? Or have a I got the wrong end of the stick?
My Grandad is a literalist, he believes that the Bible is completely literal. But which Genesis account do they believe, 1 or 2? They contradict each other. And so many of the old testament stories, like creation in Genesis, are in my opinion, metaphors. So many Bible stories don't describe everything that happens historically, but do describe important truths. It didn't all happen in 6 days ~ the days represent many billions of years. God is not twisting anything ~ God is explaining something that we cannot properly understand in a way that we might just be able to grasp.
I don't believe that the Bible is the word of God. It's a series of inspired people who have written it. Screams of the dead, eh? Sounds like a horror movie. Any proof?
I don't think that there's a hell. "God saw that it was good". In my opinion, that is God seeing that everything He has made is good. Hell can't be good if souls scream there... unless they are screams of joy  .
Nope, sorry. I'm still one of these liberals who thinks most of the Bible is one big metaphor...
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 06.07.2006, 03:55 PM |
  
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shiawase
Ohmu
Registration Date: 03.09.06
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
Originally posted by Phyrra
God is explaining something that we cannot properly understand in a way that we might just be able to grasp.
I don't believe that the Bible is the word of God. It's a series of inspired people who have written it. Screams of the dead, eh? Sounds like a horror movie. Any proof?
Your first point is impressive. That's believable for a change. And I do believe Johna was in the whales belly for 3 days until the whale spat him right back out. God allowed him to live in there. It was his punishment for trying to "hide" from God and not doing what he, a major prophet, was asked to do.
Portions of the bible were written by people, yes, alot was shown to people by God so that the Word would be documented.
Oh and I shall retrieve proof of this expedition with the rigs!!! I first heard of this from my dad a long time ago. He used to work on the rigs so I dunno how old this story is. Coulda been from when he worked on them 20 years ago or in the news since then.
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Post last edited by shiawase on 06.07.2006, 04:06 PM.
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| 06.07.2006, 04:01 PM |
 
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
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Wow, I'd love to hear about the story ~ oil rigs in the middle of nowhere, rain lashing down on the backs of the workers, slashing against their coats like the breath of an invisible beast waiting to reach up and pluck them off the rig, one by one...
Sorry, I got carried away. It'd be great to hear the full story though. I understand that if god is omnipotent then Johna could have lived in a whale... but... well, last thing I heard was that even the Vatican has admitted that it was a metaphor...
"That's believable for a change" !!! Shiawase, everything I say is believable... don't worry, I'm glad that we can have a mature converstaion, when we obvioulsy have different religious beliefs!
Meh, one day we'll find out... I hope...
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| 06.07.2006, 04:22 PM |
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shiawase
Ohmu
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| 06.07.2006, 04:34 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
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While the idea of some stories of the Bible, and even the Quran, may be metaphorical, it's impossible for EVERYTHING to be metaphorical.
Being metaphorical means understanding it would be a form of personal interpretation, and for an ENTIRE holy script to be metaphorical would mean everyone would have a different interpretation. There has to exist some degree of facts for correct interpretations to exist. And for such a large amount of scriptures, a large portion of it HAS to be fact for the rest of the metaphorical statements to be interpreted correctly.
Islam has the story of Jonah (Or Yunos, as we call him) being swallowed by a large fish. Note the absence of the claim of a whale, because I can't confirm this. The idea of a large fish in these times would automatically be given the picture of a whale, and in the end it becomes accepted as a whale. Just like the story of Eve and the forbidden fruit. No one ever said it was an apple, and no one ever said it was a snake that appeared.
To pull away from all the misunderstandings, I propose we put forward stories one by one, and dig out the truth from the myth and false interpretations. For a proper discussion, we should at least discuss FACTS instead of rumours.
Anyone for it?
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 06.08.2006, 04:17 AM |
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Phyrra
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Registration Date: 04.24.06
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So do you not believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of Allah, Roarkiller? Or do you? I thought that most did... or was I wrong?
Still, I don't believe that all the bible is metaphorical. The virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus ~ that's truth. But other stories I eblieve are just descriptions of things we'd never understand.
Trouble is, what is fact in religion? There is virtually none. Religion, or faith, means that one hhas to find out for themslelves if they believe in a deity. There is no tangible proof for any religion~ if there was thre'd be no free-will...
I can't say this for the Qur'an, but in the Bible, it does state that a snake tempted Eve... but it doesn't say about an apple. I guess that was an artistic interpretation. It's like the wise men who visited Jesus when He was born. The Bible doesn't say there were only three, but we always say there were 'three wise men'. And the greek actually says that "angelos" came when Jesus was born~ which actually means messengers, as opposed to angels. I know that from the very small bit of ancient greek I learnt last year 
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| 06.08.2006, 04:47 AM |
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Roarkiller
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quote:
Originally posted by Phyrra
So do you not believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of Allah, Roarkiller? Or do you? I thought that most did... or was I wrong?
Of course I do. What makes you say otherwise?
quote:
Still, I don't believe that all the bible is metaphorical. The virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus ~ that's truth. But other stories I eblieve are just descriptions of things we'd never understand.
Trouble is, what is fact in religion? There is virtually none. Religion, or faith, means that one hhas to find out for themslelves if they believe in a deity. There is no tangible proof for any religion~ if there was thre'd be no free-will...
I can't say this for the Qur'an, but in the Bible, it does state that a snake tempted Eve... but it doesn't say about an apple. I guess that was an artistic interpretation. It's like the wise men who visited Jesus when He was born. The Bible doesn't say there were only three, but we always say there were 'three wise men'. And the greek actually says that "angelos" came when Jesus was born~ which actually means messengers, as opposed to angels. I know that from the very small bit of ancient greek I learnt last year
When I say "fact", I was referring to what you call the lines that are not metaphorical, and the ones that actually exist in whatever holy scriptures, instead of what people in the streets believe out of hearsay.
Like that apple story, for instance.
In the Quran, it's satan that tempted Eve. No mention of a snake.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
Post last edited by Roarkiller on 06.09.2006, 12:13 AM.
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| 06.09.2006, 12:10 AM |
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shiawase
Ohmu
Registration Date: 03.09.06
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 293 |
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In the Bible, a serpent tempts Eve to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge and Power. This serpent is Satan. We call the fruit they ate an apple cuz it got stuck in Adam's throat and we call our "Adam's Apple" that because of this story. K well I'm at school and have not much else to say so I'm off for now...
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I will save myself from the world I created.
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| 06.09.2006, 01:55 PM |
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SpiritedSen
Totoro
Registration Date: 05.10.06
Location: Bath House of the Gods
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I heard somewhere the scholars now believe that the 'forbidden fruit' was most likely a banana, not an apple! 
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| 06.09.2006, 03:00 PM |
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squall_leonhart
Kodama
Registration Date: 05.16.06
Location: kamloops
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right right, a freaking banana is the forbidden fruit, i dont know why people get all hooked on what kind of fruit you got to admit if your argueing about fruit you cant like your religion to much.
it's pretty messed up you feel you need to defend fruit.
like i dont believe religion is real at all cuz every book related to "religious" figures are made by of course real people who we dont even know really witnessed anything. And if god is all mighty then why does he just let bad things happen all the time, why let the massacres occur. i dont believe in any religion, i dont care how we came to be im just glad i am who i am. and all that talk about god created everyone of us then god must be really messed up.
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| 06.09.2006, 03:17 PM |
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SpiritedSen
Totoro
Registration Date: 05.10.06
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Actually squall, I'm an athiest...I just thought it was an interesting piece of trivia.
And as for your opinion on bad things happening, I think that religious people say that God gave people free will.
And even though I'm an athiest, I respect people's right to believe in whatever they want.
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| 06.09.2006, 03:42 PM |
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
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quote:
Originally posted by squall_leonhart
And if god is all mighty then why does he just let bad things happen all the time, why let the massacres occur. i dont believe in any religion, i dont care how we came to be im just glad i am who i am. and all that talk about god created everyone of us then god must be really messed up.
There are plenty of reasons for 'why God allows suffering'
God gave us free-will, or the ability to either refuse God, or to believe in Him. Everyone must admit that, if a God exists, He has given us free-will. So, without suffering, then we would not have free-will. If suddenly no evil occurred, no crimes at all, every crop for every farmer yielded in excess, every school kid got 100% in their exams, every marriage was successful, etc, then everyone would have to acknowledge that a God must exist. If from this moment on, nothing adverse happened, we'd all have to believe in a God ~ and we'd lose our gift of free-will. Through suffering we are able to reject Him, something that blessings cannot give.
I also like the view that good people are punished for the little evil they have done in this life; when bad people are rewarded for the little good they have done in this life.
Job questioned why God brought suffering into the world. God asked Job if Job knew how everything in the world worked, if Job knew how all of creation had been made. Where was Job at the beginning of creation? Job did not understand any of that, and it was not in his position to question God. We can never find the true reasons behind suffering ~ it is beyond our miserly human minds...
The real reasons exist ~ but only God knows them. Suffering helps many people ~ they learn to be a better person. But how can something like the Shoah have a purpose? I don't know, and I don't believe any human, ever will.
"Not to have known suffering, is not to be truly human" ~ Midrash (Judaism)
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| 06.09.2006, 03:44 PM |
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squall_leonhart
Kodama
Registration Date: 05.16.06
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i just dont get why bad things have to happen and so much suffering has to be endured throughout the world its really sad when you know whats happening but it's impossible for you to do anything and it seems no one is doing anything to help. it's just retarded all the crap that happens, all the pain people have to go through even though they've done nothing wrong or bad. i just cant believe in anything that lets all that happen it just makes me feel that anyone who follows god is sick because they believe in something that will never help them. religions are just a cult for people who cant belive in themselves, or atleast aren't smart enough to believe in themselves.
in my my world i am my own god, i have myself to look up to, i can give myself things and take things away that is what i truly believe in, you have to belive in yourself and think of you as your own god.
people who do evil things in the name of a "religious lord" are evil people. I once heard someone say that no wars began from religion, Hello anyone heard of the crusades. i will edit post later i have to get to class.
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| 06.09.2006, 04:09 PM |
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
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I know I started a thread on fansubs ~ but I hope this is slightly different. This is more religious attitudes rather than general attitudes... please don't ban me for spamming the same question!
I've just found out that fansubs, despite being only licensed in Japan, are actually just like anyother pirated media, in the eyes of the law.
(excuse the cliché) But for me, there's a far greater law. The law of religion. What would religion say about piracy, and non-licensed fansubs?
I would ask at my Church tomorrow morning. But I'd be the only one there who would have the faintest clue what 'fansubs', 'piracy' or even 'animé' is... the place is filled with an older generation ~ who would only be able to offer advice on ancient matters  ...
So I'm opening my dilema to you... is it against religious teachings to pirate in general or download fansubs? 
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Post last edited by Phyrra on 06.10.2006, 04:39 PM.
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| 06.10.2006, 03:05 PM |
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Tehanu
Susuwatari
Registration Date: 06.06.06
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Phyrra, the question would be more like, is it bad to steal the fruits of somebody's labour? If somebody worked in a garden for months to grow beautiful tomatoes, and somebody else took them once they were ripe, there's probably no question that would be bad. If somebody worked for years to develop a better, more wonderful tomato, and then somebody stole their plants and gave them to their friends, would that be stealing?
If somebody has a talent for making anime, and fights for years to get the support, the funding, the team of people to help them, as well as the time spent perfecting their art, and finally they make a movie.....do they deserve to get paid?
If their stuff gets pirated, what happens to the money they hoped to make?
What happens the next time they want to make a movie, and the studios say 'well, the last one didn't make enough money, it just got pirated'?
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| 06.11.2006, 12:06 AM |
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
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Yes, I agree with you Tehanu about piracy. After all, there's the do to your neighbour as you'd do to yourself idea. One of the two rules given to us by Jesus (Christian prospective here by the way).
Although fansubs are different. Tomatoes can be eaten by anyone. Japanese animé cannot be enjoyed by everyone, and I'd find it impossible to buy it anywhere (seeing as my parents will not let me buy online  )
There is the argument that pirating is fine because people wouldn't buy the product anyway. So the company wouldn't be loosing any money. I disagree with this becasue that doesn't entitle the priate to a free copy.
hehe... if piracy was called "illegal data transfering pratice" then there'd be half as many people pirating as there are now...
It was a silly question. I pretty much knew that all religions would be against piracy and fansubs when I wrote the question... I was just hoping someone would prove me wrong... 
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| 06.11.2006, 01:46 AM |
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shiawase
Ohmu
Registration Date: 03.09.06
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
Originally posted by squall_leonhart
religions are just a cult for people who cant belive in themselves, or atleast aren't smart enough to believe in themselves.
in my my world i am my own god, i have myself to look up to, i can give myself things and take things away that is what i truly believe in, you have to belive in yourself and think of you as your own god.
This is true and is where I stand aswell. This is the essence of Buddhism. Only you can free yourself. You control your destiny, the outcome of all decisions you make about your own life. You're responsible for your own actions (heard that one a millions times I'm sure ) and you only have yourself to blame. Only you have control over every action and reaction, cause and affect, wholesome and unwholesome deed that goes on in your life.
This is not a selfish look on things, by no means is it selfish. You better understand yourself and the world you inhabit for the sake of others.
As of fruit: Who gives a damn, the guy at a fruit from a tree and that was that. The fruit symbolizes desire and equality.
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~Akarui Tsubasa~
I will save myself from the world I created.
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| 06.11.2006, 03:37 AM |
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052 |
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I don't like the idea of me being responsible for only myself. I find the idea of a God comforting ~ someone who is in control of the universe. Humanity couldn't (in my opinion) have been able to get to where we are today if there was no God.
That having been said, I do believe that only we are responsible for our own actions, we have free-will after all. however, we can be influenced by our environment and others pressurising us...
That leads onto my real point. I believe that I will not be judged in the same way as my friends are. I have been brought up in a Christian family, so it has been more easier for me to become religious than someone in Africa, who has never heard of Jesus or has never had the oportunity to understand the Christian message.
In real life, there are different ways of judging different people. GCSEs have two different tiers for people of different abilities. Just as I won't sit the same exam as someone who has just finished their university career ~ I can't believe i will be judged in the same way as a priest or as a child fighting of disease and hunger in a poverty striken country.
So in this way, our futures are somewhat dependant on our circumstances now... that's my opinion anyway 
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| 06.11.2006, 04:02 AM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
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quote:
"Not to have known suffering, is not to be truly human"
I love this phrase. The ironic thing is, the only people who complain are those with negative attributes, like laziness, greed, etc.
A philosophical question: if a person suffers when working (like toiling under the sun), yet enjoys every minute of it, is it suffering or enjoyment?
A personal opinion is that this is the same as opposing the all-too-common phrase "Work is work, play is play", which as you can tell, is something I [u]violently[/i] disagree.
On the fansub question, I'll add another question: in Japan, the cost of watching the anime is the TV tax. We pay TV tax. What we are watching is a recording of what was on TV, with subtitles.
So what's the difference between watching what was on TV for free and downloading it and watching it for free?
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 06.11.2006, 11:44 AM |
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052 |
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The difference is, if those nasty companies decided to take me to court... and I can't bail myself out on my pocketmoney... But that's not why I don't do piracy or fansubs...
I know the reality. No-one is, ever, going to be taken to court for fansubs. I don't think anyone in the UK has been put on trial for piracy ~ and the total number in Europe is virtually zero... I think...
I'll find some facts and figures and post them when I have them.
I also disagree with the phrase. When I do religious studies work at school, I don't look at it as 'work', I enjoy it . All of my friends think it's work. (I bet that sounded really weird ~ but it's true)
I believe that suffering is personal. I would suffer if I were locked in a room with many spiders. I hate spiders, and I'd experience suffering if you were to place a couple on my head...
Now, I know people who wouldn't mind that in the slightest.
There is of course that sort of suffering, and real suffering. Starvation, disease and droughts. I bet everyone would suffer in those circumstances...
You've thrown an interesting view into play with that fansubs response, Roarkiller... I still feel a tingle in my conscience when I breeze past a fansubs website though...
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Post last edited by Phyrra on 06.11.2006, 01:53 PM.
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| 06.11.2006, 12:11 PM |
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