Three questions on Mononoke

1) I am watching the original Japanese with English subtitles, but as I speak no Japanese I have a question about the ending... When Ashitaka and San part company she says (allegedly) that she loves him, but she must go because she cannot forgive the humans, etc. etc. What does the original say? The word "love" does look out of place in this context and sounds very odd to me.

2) What is the arrowhead that Ashitaka is given as a present as he leaves his village at the beginning of the film supposed to be? A love token? If so, what happens to the girl who has given it to him? She seems to have been quite forgotten as Ashitaka does not think twice about recycling the present...

3) Is the forest spirit dumb or what? I mean, Ashitaka tells the rifle men that if they fight the spirit won't come, however, despite all the commotion that ensued, here comes the spirit, which after getting shot for the first time carries on as if nothing had happened.

I am sure these questions have been asked before, but please forgive me for not searching the board

1) This is simply Ashitaka getting 'friendzoned' by San. This is done in the typical, 'I love spending time with you but, your just not my type, we can keep hanging around, but nothing will ever happen between us' fashion.
I 'love you, but I can never forgive the humans' carry's the same meaning, Ashitaka saying he will go visit in the forest is simply him displaying that he has accepted the friendzone and/or, displaying his very high beta male quality's. Ghibli received widespread praise for this accurate portrayal of this action.

2) This question can be thought of in two different way's
A) Ashitaka is simply a man whore who moved from woman to woman without hesitation to fulfill his primal needs for physical love with another human being.
B) Ashitaka is a 'gold digger'. While in the village, this girl, with whom Ashitaka was engaged, was simply for him the wealthiest girl he could find. Ashitaka bore no love or attraction to this girl, other than the usage of her wealth for his own personal benefits. Hence, this token of love for the girl meant very little to Ashitaka, who gave away this final gift of affection from his former fiancé without any hesitation or remorse. This could also be perceived as the reason he accepted San's 'friendzone', as explained in 1), without any pain, as she bore no wealth seen by Ashitaka that could be of personal benefit to him.
Of all the Ghibli character's, Ashitaka is often regarded as the sliest and most selfish of all.

3) This remains a closely guarded Miyazaki secret, which shall only be revealed when his true identity as the Japanese Santa-Claus is revealed to the world. Currently, only the most extreme Ghibli fans posses this dark and terrible secret, keeping his identity and alter ego safe.

Err... okay... that was rather strange, cap'n...

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Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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I must confess I have found the analysis by captain george rather surprising myself...
Any more takes on this?

Post last edited by Arkadian on 05.27.2012, 01:01 PM.

I guess captain george's answers are tongue-in-cheek

Regarding the second question, this discussion summary is interesting: http://www.noderunner.net/~llin/old/mmlt...5April01.html#3

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Originally posted by leonbloy
Regarding the second question, this discussion summary is interesting: http://www.noderunner.net/~llin/old/mmlt...5April01.html#3

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I have seen this thread a few times now and I have only just gotten round to reading it, I think that captains post although tongue in cheek is very valid. It made me chuckle none the less though, especially roars reaction.

Anyway in relation to the questions I think the answer to the first one is a simple difference in the English and Japanese language. It may be a simple matter of San saying she likes him like Captain described it but during the translation process the way it is written in Japanese it comes out as the word love in the English language, although this is not a definitive answer it is what I believe.

In relation to the second question I agree with Captain 100%, Ghibli films are generally looked upon as innocent which is understandable, however looking at Princess Mononoke it is far from innocent, the lesser innocent of all Miyazaki films if you ask me. Furthermore when I watch Mononoke Ashitaka always comes across to me as a very big headed character, almost like a player of women. Or like Captain says it 'Man Whore' HAHA. I mean if you watch Mononoke and really consider the theme of love which is found in most Miyazaki films anyway, it is more I think sexual in Mononoke I think the ending is used to bring a sense of innocence to the film regarding the theme of love, I mean throughout the whole film we have seen these characters relationship flourish and we have been led to believe it is very sexual, but I think the ending was used to put an end to what we think is going to be a flourishing relationship, which we must point out is done very well by Miyazaki. If we look at it in this sense, if we treat this film like a controlled runaway train (I know just go with it) and the ending is a big set of buffers put in front of it.

As for the third question I think it is down to the time limit of the production. Miyazaki was warned that at the rate he was going when drawing the film that he was heading towards a three hour film, he said if it must be so then it must be so, but I believe there was a bit of give and take in relation to time restraints and they cut the film back. So even though this was said and the film doesn't correspond to what was said properly, we would have been loking at nearly a three hour film if it was changed so the spirit didn't appear as a whole new scenario would have to have been created. So I think what I am trying to say in a complex long winded way is time restraints meant that they couldn't change the drawings so it corresponded with the already written and finallised script.

HHmmm I need to watch this film again. I really cannot see all you say about Ashitaka...

Next thing you are going to tell me is that Sheeta is a harlot and Kiki a burlesque star in the making (after all we do see her "knickers" more than once).

It could always relate back to Miyazaki's use of female characters for lead roles, in an interview when asked why he uses female characters he just laughed and said 'I like women'.

http://www.midnighteye.com/interviews/hayao_miyazaki.shtml

It is the fourth question down, although I would advise reading the whole interview it is really interesting, I found it while doing research for my Film Studies coursework, and I used loads of info from it, and is most likely why I got an A.

Besides it may not be extremely obvious about ashitaka, after all it can't considering the target audience of the film, but in an underlying subtext, when analysed it can seem like that. Besides Sheeta can't be described as a harlot, more of a helpless ponse (Someone who always uses otherpeople things and can't be without them..... * Cough - Pazu - Cough*

I feel this thread is about to take a whole new turn. If it hasn't already. I can see us trying to match up Miyazaki's characters to naughty jobs/ lifestyle.

I happened to re-watch Mononoke recently. I don't remember the exact phrasing of what San said, but I think she said something like アシタカが好きだけど[...], which literally means "I like you Ashitaka, but"[...].

The translation isn't necessarily wrong, because the implication of saying "I like you" is often love/fondness/attraction etc.

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I thought the girl who gave him the gift in the village was his sister and the gift embodied her parting love and good wishes for his journey.

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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

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Originally posted by Mushka
I happened to re-watch Mononoke recently. I don't remember the exact phrasing of what San said, but I think she said something like アシタカが好きだけど[...], which literally means "I like you Ashitaka, but"[...].

The translation isn't necessarily wrong, because the implication of saying "I like you" is often love/fondness/attraction etc.

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Originally posted by Saddletank
I thought the girl who gave him the gift in the village was his sister and the gift embodied her parting love and good wishes for his journey.

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Arkadian is correct, the girl calls him 'big brother', but that is merely a cultural detail (common in many places of East and South Asia).

In fact, Miyazaki's concept of the girl was indeed that she was someone who was regarded in the village as being Ashitaka's eventual bride (though nothing more than that), hence her reaction to his departure.

This was brought up in the extensive backstage documentary for the film.

Post last edited by Theowne on 06.06.2012, 08:31 PM.

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Originally posted by Arkadian
Mushka, in Japanese does it sound odd or not?
I find the English subtitle a bit too abrupt and out of the blue.

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To suddenly say "I like (love) you, Ashitaka" as though it's a confession of her hidden feelings would be really abrupt and out of the blue.

If it's "I like (can tolerate) you, Ashitaka, but I can't forgive the humans", then it seems less out of place to me. But suki implies more fondness than that, I think.

So I think San is apologizing because she doesn't feel she can build a life with Ashitaka, since he's too close to the humans. But she regrets it because she actually does like him. I don't think it's a "friendzone" thing; it's more of a star-crossed Romeo and Juliet and wish-you-weren't-house-Montague thing. And she knows that Ashitaka likes her already.

In that case I don't think it's especially sudden or out-of-the-blue for her to say "I (actually do) like you (too), but, there's this thing that's in the way and I can't put it behind me".

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And its a monster bummer when girls say that to you *sniff*

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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Ah, I find people's interpretation of Ashitaka to be really strange, he's easily my favourite male Ghibli character. I've always seen the younger girl as simply the 'little sister' type who he was close to in the village, since at no point is there any reference to a romantic relationship between the two. Considering he put himself in harms way to save her life, the gift of a dagger is hardly that unreasonable.

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Originally posted by Nausicaa_Cat
Ah, I find people's interpretation of Ashitaka to be really strange, he's easily my favourite male Ghibli character. I've always seen the younger girl as simply the 'little sister' type who he was close to in the village, since at no point is there any reference to a romantic relationship between the two. Considering he put himself in harms way to save her life, the gift of a dagger is hardly that unreasonable.

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Leonbloy quote:

"Eowyn: It is possible to love more than one person (of the other sex) at the same time, but in a different mode and intensity"

Yes, I agree with this statement. A minor problem that I had in my courtship and later early marriage was convincing my soon-to-be-wife that I had strong feelings for other females as well, but it was only as friendships. As I mentioned before in the Tav, I seem to get on well with females, young and old, and we can become great friends, but there was only one LOVE in my life and that was her. When she finally realized that, ruffled feelings were smoothed out.

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To add to my original post....Miyazaki's own words on the topic of the dagger-giving girl and her significance....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNhQqp5yL....be&t=4m28s

She is meant to be someone who Ashitaka was expected to marry in the future. This sort of "understanding" is not uncommon in small villages of different cultures, and is quite different from 'romantic love' as it is being used in this discussion. Miyazaki did intend for her to have some degree of significance, but only in a subtle way.

Post last edited by Theowne on 06.07.2012, 09:27 PM.