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Seiji
Totoro
Registration Date: 07.29.06
Location: USA
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yes, after looking that up, it is truly disturbing...I learn so many unusual words on this forum.
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 02.08.2007, 05:55 PM |
  
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
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Today, a Saturday, while the family was away I treated myself to the full 13 episodes.
And I'm so sorry to say that this did almost nothing for me at all.
I wasn't taken with the art style which felt amateurish and very low budget, the character design was weak, the plot was daft, the character development was just not there (I mean Shuji would have died of emotional shock and probably a heart attack well before half way thru the series). No other character had any development at all, the characters were blubbing every 5 minutes for no real reason, Chise's crying got really - I mean REALLY - annoying after the tenth time because it sounded like the same recording used over and over, almost every death scene was written purely to pull at your heartstrings with no other purpose (and so they didn't pull at mine at all) and the whole thing left me feeling... cheated.
If the plot hadn't be so silly and the setting had concentrated on a simpler war rather than an apocalyptic one, and had the characters been written more believeably and all the cheap emotional shocks kept out, it could have been fantastic. Less is more is what this should have aimed for, instead we got more and it turned out less. As it is I think this is the weakest anime I've ever seen, barring Steamboy.
Oh, and to cap it all off the sympathetic character just happens to be - once again - a schoolgirl in a very short skirt who seemed to lose her clothing a lot. Ho hum...
Sure I cried a few times at various points but it began to feel like a p0rn movie after a while - you just sat through boring linking scenes knowing there was another sex scene coming any minute (or in this case the next crying scene), the whole thing seemed to me to be a flimsy vehicle designed to get people to cry, and for me it didn't work.
To get an emotive response from me I need to be drawn into the story: to care about the characters and what happens to them. In this series that just didn't happen because the characters were paper thin and evoked no sympathy from me. I cried more watching the scene of Gina in her garden when Porco flies over than I did in all these 13 episodes combined because Miyazaki made me care about that woman.
Sorry all, I must be the only person here who sees this for the pile of cack it is.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 02.17.2007, 05:26 PM.
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| 02.17.2007, 05:15 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
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You must be. I saw a LOT of character development and a very solid plot there, and I'm a VERY harsh critic.
Reading your post again, I sorta realized that you were referring it as a war story of sorts. In which case, I would understand what you mean, because I think I mentioned this before; it may have a war setting, but the story is NOT about the war.
Animation wise, it's pretty standard, but while having good animation is a merit on it's own, shouldn't you be looking at the scenes directing as well? Advent Children has amazing animation, but you wouldn't call it a great movie now would you?
Similarly, Castle of Cagliostro, compared to now, had pretty poor animation, but the directing made up a lot for that.
Only part I agree with you is the nudity part, but eh, it's part and parcel of japanese animation, and I have grown to look past it.
Maybe if you could specify what exactly was wrong...
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 02.18.2007, 05:16 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
You must be. I saw a LOT of character development and a very solid plot there, and I'm a VERY harsh critic.
The only plot and character development I saw was Chise gradually growing worse and more destructive and more unhappy and Shuji's growing fears and frustrations - and the war eroding their lives and sanity - everything else around that was sub-plot for me.
Please let me know what plot and char dev you saw.
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Reading your post again, I sorta realized that you were referring it as a war story of sorts. In which case, I would understand what you mean, because I think I mentioned this before; it may have a war setting, but the story is NOT about the war.
I think I saw a lot of war story in there because... well a lot of war story is in there. Too much of it. You can make a love story emotional and fragile set against a war by making the war less intrusive and more sinister (Howl for example). I looked at the war story plot because it was handed to me frequently and because I saw little else happening with the main characters that wasn't driven by this war (and her changes due to it).
I will tell you that the only two moments of the serie sthat did get iunside my armour was Akemi's death when we found out she'd been in love with Shuji for years (although I'd worked that one out it was still heartbreaking to see him discover it) and him praising her beauty as she was broken and dying - that was a sad scene, I'll agree. And the three weeks they spent at the fishing port trying to have a normal relationship but her drugs running out, again that was a sad story in the main story. But I think those were the only two times I needed a kleenex.
I want to make a quick comparison to a scene in Wings of Honneamise. In that story an astronaut in training meets a girl handing out religious tracts on a street corner. Initially he just wants to sleep with her but gradually she gets under his skin and he goes through a form of religious conversion or spiritual awakening. One day, just before he is due to be launched into space he goes to her house which is at the end of a tram line. She isn't there so he goes back to the tram which has just pulled into the station. As he gets on one carriage, she gets off the other. As he turns and the tram begins to move he sees her and she sees him. She's standing on the platform and the tram is gathering speed and I was crying my eyes out telling this guy to damn well jump off that tram and go and hug her but he didn't. The damn fool didn't. And he never saw her again.
Now that is emotional because I cared so much about this man and this woman and I wanted them to be happy, THAT is good directing and good character development. Saikano has none of that at all, not one moment of it.
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Animation wise, it's pretty standard, but while having good animation is a merit on it's own, shouldn't you be looking at the scenes directing as well? Advent Children has amazing animation, but you wouldn't call it a great movie now would you?
I haven't seen Advent Children. I would say from my limited expereince that this series was one of the few I've watched where I knew I was watching anime and I didn't lose myself in the story - in most others I've watched I forget after a while that its moving drawings. That didn't happen here. I didn't notice any especially slick directing but I rarely do, its a technical thing I often don't pick up on. But then nothing in this one made me sit up and notice.
For slick directing, claustrophobic scenes and great cutting I'd say Perfect Blue was a good example, but not Saikano.
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Similarly, Castle of Cagliostro, compared to now, had pretty poor animation, but the directing made up a lot for that.
I'm sure you're right, I've not watched that yet either.
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Only part I agree with you is the nudity part, but eh, it's part and parcel of japanese animation, and I have grown to look past it.
I'm coming to realise that you're right. Anime seems to live and breath undressed schoolgirls - I've said it before and I'll probably say it again, that's may be one reason why it fails to gain mainstream acceptance in the west, because the average viewer doubts its motives. Imagine what the series would have been like if it had been a boy as the weapon, and a girl narrating. How would that have hurt sales? You see? This stuff is just pandering to the altar of making money, as is a lot of anime, sadly.
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Maybe if you could specify what exactly was wrong...
I thought I had. Not sure what other specifics you want unless I go thru each episide frame by frame.
But for me the main issue was the completely silly story. In real life if such a thing ever did happen the girl would live on a military base and that would be that - no letting her wander around a school and community and screw herself up and screw up the kids around her. End of story. It was that silliness that spoilt it for me.
The second main issue was all the crying and weeping and so on that came from 2-dimensional characters that I hadn't been given a reason to love and be involved with. Had they let 2 or 3 normal episodes go by in which these characters all grew under you skin before the action started then it might have been better (sadder), as it was I just got more and more annoyed as the series went on and another weeping scene or death writhing in agony scene came along which didn't affect me.
Clearly these writers think that a soldier moaning on the ground and telling us how much huge holes in his body hurt and then starting to tell us about his loved ones or spouting philosophical mumbo-jumbo will move us. Well, it doesn't. It gets boring real fast.
How many photos of loved ones did we see inside the helmets of soldiers in this story - three? four? That's pointless, its not necessary. Just concentrate on one soldier, let us get sympathy for him and then let him die and the effect would be so much stronger. Seeing several complete strangers die isn't how to do it. Its the most basic lesson in storytelling and it annoyed me that these guys hadn't learned that.
At one stage the writers pandered to the harem genre with a second girl in love with this boy and an old schoolteacher jumping on him at every opportunity. I just felt I'd seen all this before and wasn't being given anything original.
One boy who is rejected in love goes off to war. And you think "oh, he's gonna die, he's bound to die" and yep, he does and when it happens I just sat there and thought "yep, saw that coming". It was so predictable, nothing kept me on the edge of my seat.
__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 02.18.2007, 05:57 AM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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*cracks knuckles* A warning to the rest of the members, SUPER MAJOR SPOILERS ahead. Thank you.
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Originally posted by Saddletank The only plot and character development I saw was Chise gradually growing worse and more destructive and more unhappy and Shuji's growing fears and frustrations - and the war eroding their lives and sanity - everything else around that was sub-plot for me.
Please let me know what plot and char dev you saw.
Well... *scratches head* ... if that's how you see it, then there's no point in my saying anything. Perspective, I guess.
-On Chise:
I see Chise's psychological growth; starting from one always trying to hide her secret and seeing everything as pre-destined. The she fell in love, and with that love grew a sense to protect the ones she loves (remember that she initially just did as commanded), and now made "selfish" requests and demands. During this period she gets torn between her duty she believed herself to be destined to, and her wish to do as Shuuji wanted; to run away and never look back, and live a happy life (also note that at this point, she wasn't as far developed as a weapon as to need drugs that badly). As the dilemma between personal wishes and official duties tear her apart, we also see her starting to look at others for support during the times she was away from Shuuji. Lots more to say, but let's just fast forward to when she finally lost control and decided to abandon all for Shuuji, before she was "betrayed". At this point, even her mental state had turned into weaponry, yet somehow managed to store a small part of her humanity somewhere.
I'm sure you saw all this and simply summarized it as what you said. But I wonder if you realized that, no matter how predictable this sort of pattern is, this IS the development that might happen in real life. Remember the rule of change; denial, rebellion, acceptance. After which depends on whether the acceptance can hold on, which in this case, didn't.
-On Shuuji:
Shuuji's character wasn't developed as much as Chise IMO, but still decent enough. Like I said, denial first, and we see it as the point of their break-up; his refusal to accept that Chise was "not human". Then we see him desperately trying to lure Chise away from it all; as right as this may seem, realize that he is, at this part, being very selfish. He does not even begin to understand Chise, and in time, caused the break-up. Then came the tough road to understanding, and we see betrayals, drama, people around him being involved as well. It was only when he realized how important Chise was to him that he started to show a different attitude towards her; albeit still with a major amount of discomfort (this we can actually see through the directing, which was why I mentioned it). Only in the end did he finally accept Chise in her entirety.
Describing the other characters would take up at least twice as long as this post so far, but anyways, yeah. Sorry if it doesn't sound convincing, but I'm just not very good with words.
Plot sounds about right to me. But it works the other way for me too, as I'll explain later.
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Originally posted by Saddletank I think I saw a lot of war story in there because... well a lot of war story is in there. Too much of it. You can make a love story emotional and fragile set against a war by making the war less intrusive and more sinister (Howl for example). I looked at the war story plot because it was handed to me frequently and because I saw little else happening with the main characters that wasn't driven by this war (and her changes due to it).
That's why I said the story ISN'T a war story. That's a setting. Take that away, replace with another setting, and there ya go.
Yes, the setting plays an important part in the story, but the setting is not an INTEGRAL part of the story.
Maybe I just saw something different, so eh, no point arguing here.
But this is why I said it had a solid plot. The story was about Chise and Shuuji trying to come into terms with each other. Not the war. Replace the cyborg with idolism or work, the war with fans or commitments, and you'll get the same story and same heartbreak.
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Originally posted by Saddletank I will tell you that the only two moments of the serie sthat did get iunside my armour was Akemi's death when we found out she'd been in love with Shuji for years (although I'd worked that one out it was still heartbreaking to see him discover it) and him praising her beauty as she was broken and dying - that was a sad scene, I'll agree. And the three weeks they spent at the fishing port trying to have a normal relationship but her drugs running out, again that was a sad story in the main story. But I think those were the only two times I needed a kleenex.
I agree on the first but not the second. 2nd isn't an issue, but I think the first needs some explanation. This is what I see in Akemi's death scene. Or rather, what I heard.
Like I said, the animation isn't spectacular, and we see yet again another ecchi scene. IGNORE THAT. Focus on the voice acting. Focus on the mood and setting. This is a girl, on her deathbed, and still she years for her love, and still worries about how she looks.
Now focus on her few dying moments. LISTEN to her gaspings and her talking. Now THAT was what pulled at my heartstrings. It wasn't because it was a sad scene; it was the beautiful voice acting, which made the whole scene literally come alive, that made me shed tears. The way she gasped for breath to shouted hoarsely for Shuuji, blank eyes searching blindly, the way her ahdns grabbed out at nothing for hope- all that coupled together, it made the scene come alive.
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank I want to make a quick comparison to a scene in Wings of Honneamise. In that story an astronaut in training meets a girl handing out religious tracts on a street corner. Initially he just wants to sleep with her but gradually she gets under his skin and he goes through a form of religious conversion or spiritual awakening. One day, just before he is due to be launched into space he goes to her house which is at the end of a tram line. She isn't there so he goes back to the tram which has just pulled into the station. As he gets on one carriage, she gets off the other. As he turns and the tram begins to move he sees her and she sees him. She's standing on the platform and the tram is gathering speed and I was crying my eyes out telling this guy to damn well jump off that tram and go and hug her but he didn't. The damn fool didn't. And he never saw her again.
Now that is emotional because I cared so much about this man and this woman and I wanted them to be happy, THAT is good directing and good character development. Saikano has none of that at all, not one moment of it.
Um, just see below, same topic anyhow...
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Originally posted by Saddletank I haven't seen Advent Children. I would say from my limited expereince that this series was one of the few I've watched where I knew I was watching anime and I didn't lose myself in the story - in most others I've watched I forget after a while that its moving drawings. That didn't happen here. I didn't notice any especially slick directing but I rarely do, its a technical thing I often don't pick up on. But then nothing in this one made me sit up and notice.
For slick directing, claustrophobic scenes and great cutting I'd say Perfect Blue was a good example, but not Saikano.
Well that explains a lot. To explain, a quote by someone (don't really care who, nor do I care about the accuracy):
"It is the little things that separate the normal from the beautiful."
Similarly, a LOT of the really great directing scenes lasted barely a second. Probably you have missed it, but I am particularly sensitive to it, because to me, the best directing is to be able to create a feeling so normal it's not normal.
To demonstrate an example, I'll give two; one which still has a strong impression on me, and one which, to me, made the whole series worth it's weight in gold, poetically speaking.
In one scene, after a small talk, Chise somehow went back into "weapon mode" and said something along the line of someone, or a group of people, going to die. In the next moment, Shuuji glances down at her, but for barely a second before the scene changes into a different setting.
In that SPLIT SECOND, I see:
1) The gradual transitional change between Chise the human forced to be a weapon, slowly into Chise the weapon who can never revert back to the way she was (think the emotional and psychological factors).
2) Shuuji, who has been trying to accept Chise and look past the weapons part of Chise, psychologically BACKING OFF from Chise, full of fear and disgust, brought shockingly back into reality, the fact of who his girlfriend really is.
There are numerous other hidden scenes just like this, and like you said, most go unnoticed except for those sensitive. So here's another I doubt you would have noticed, but gave me the strongest emotion ANY anime has EVER given me.
In the final ep, Shuuji was the final human alive, and searches for Chise, who he finally finds in the form of but a memory in his heart, and the world is now all but pitch black. He gets pulled into his heart and, like Chise, is surprised to see the wide world that exists in his heart, and pats Chise on her head.
--> In this part, less than half a second in fact, we see Shuuji, alone in the dark, patting NOTHING. Note, he is patting NOTHING. He is ALONE in the world, PITCH BLACK, and he is patting the head of Chise who DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE.
And for me, in just that brief moment, I was crying like I had just heard about the death of someone extremely dear to me.
And that, to me, was worth more than the entire series itself, and was a moment of directorial magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank I'm sure you're right, I've not watched that yet either.
Actually, neither have I, lol 
~To be continued
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I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 02.18.2007, 08:14 AM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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~Continuing...
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank But for me the main issue was the completely silly story. In real life if such a thing ever did happen the girl would live on a military base and that would be that - no letting her wander around a school and community and screw herself up and screw up the kids around her. End of story. It was that silliness that spoilt it for me.
You do realize that not even her parents knew. If she had to live in the base (which she actually did from time to time, as we later discover through the OVA), her parents would be involved, and then there's the danger of her parents telling the public. And of course there's always the question of humanity and right of freedom.
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank The second main issue was all the crying and weeping and so on that came from 2-dimensional characters that I hadn't been given a reason to love and be involved with. Had they let 2 or 3 normal episodes go by in which these characters all grew under you skin before the action started then it might have been better (sadder), as it was I just got more and more annoyed as the series went on and another weeping scene or death writhing in agony scene came along which didn't affect me.
I don't see that many scenes. Chise was a crybaby, admittedly, but that's who she is. I don't else anyone else crying unnecessarily.
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Originally posted by Saddletank Clearly these writers think that a soldier moaning on the ground and telling us how much huge holes in his body hurt and then starting to tell us about his loved ones or spouting philosophical mumbo-jumbo will move us. Well, it doesn't. It gets boring real fast.
Ever seen war movies, brother? They're all the same 
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Originally posted by Saddletank How many photos of loved ones did we see inside the helmets of soldiers in this story - three? four? That's pointless, its not necessary. Just concentrate on one soldier, let us get sympathy for him and then let him die and the effect would be so much stronger. Seeing several complete strangers die isn't how to do it. Its the most basic lesson in storytelling and it annoyed me that these guys hadn't learned that.
The idea is to see how the war had affected everyone. In real life, everybody will compain, not just one. And having a picture of your loved one close to you is pretty common, as is the placing of the photo in the same place (we all know how the army brainwashes us to a "monkey see monkey do" personality).
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Originally posted by Saddletank At one stage the writers pandered to the harem genre with a second girl in love with this boy and an old schoolteacher jumping on him at every opportunity. I just felt I'd seen all this before and wasn't being given anything original.
Can't argue with you there. And yet I get the feeling that you're missing the point. It's not uncommon for a boy to have more than one secret admirer. And we know that his teacher knew that Shuuji was in love with her, and in the absence of her own love(husband), she just grabbed on to whoever was the closest.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that.
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Originally posted by Saddletank One boy who is rejected in love goes off to war. And you think "oh, he's gonna die, he's bound to die" and yep, he does and when it happens I just sat there and thought "yep, saw that coming". It was so predictable, nothing kept me on the edge of my seat.
It's not supposed to. That's the truth of war. Nothing romantic about it. Nobody goes to war believeing that he won't die. Even Akemi mentioned how stupid it was for him to go and die for her.
~END OF LONG STUPID POINTLESS ANNOYING POST (i.e. spam)~
Well, there's my take. And wow, I didn't know there was a character limit on this board.
__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 02.18.2007, 08:15 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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Sure, it was a long post, but not stupid. And definitely not spam. Had you tried to sell me a loan it would have been spam but you didn't so no need to panic on that account.
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You do realize that not even her parents knew. If she had to live in the base (which she actually did from time to time, as we later discover through the OVA), her parents would be involved, and then there's the danger of her parents telling the public. And of course there's always the question of humanity and right of freedom.
Which supports my point that its a silly plot right from the start. Her human rights were violated on day one. End of argument. It sucks. You've correctly considered the background facts and come to realise it makes no sense. If the military did this to a human they'd fake her death and her parents would grieve and that would be it. Or they'd just eliminate the family too. The way this story is written simply makes no sense. Consider the madness that is the first 10 episodes of EVA - 14 year old cute kids piloting giant robots against huge aliens - come on, don't make me laugh thats such an overused plot. Isn't it? But then, at some point in episode 13 or so we get a huge slap in the face and slowly we find out that there is a very good reason why these kids are all 14, why these aliens are attacking and that these are not giant robots - so an apparently silly plot becomes something quite staggeringly different. In Saikano (for me) a silly plot remains a silly plot. You mentioned taking away the war background and the cyborg and replacing those with other devices. My response to that is why didn't they? If they wanted to give us this tale with these sorts of issues, why use this odd storyline?
My main thought (and a guilty one) is that I quickly became annoyed with this series and stopped seeing little things in it.
There is this, though, that bothers me: Considering how I often have said I have seen little things in (say) Whisper of the Heart, small incidental background things, and they to me have purpose, and you have denied it, I find it strange that you pick up on small things in this anime which to me don't have purpose.
Yes, at the end I too noticed the beautiful relationship they finally found in his heart but by then I was past caring. That moved you, and that is beautiful, I'm glad it did. I have seen many other moments in several other anime that moved me much more, but that is how the world is and why people are so fascinating, because we respond in different ways.
Clearly you and I are touched by different things in anime - nothing wrong with that. I'm a practical person and need to have a story told to me in a way I can connect with. I just couldn't connect with this story, for me it had too many plot loopholes and made no sense in too many places.
Yes, war is hell, and we've all seen a zillion cliched war movies. Therefore I don't need to see another. I want a fresh take on things. If a long death scene sucked in "Bridge at Remagen" why did these guys make several more? You can deliver emotional impact in other ways, more subtle but cutting so much deeper. Please, anime writers, please be more original.
Akemi's death - yes I hear what you are saying, but by then there had been so many weepy death scenes I was immune to it. They should have cut them all out and included only the 1 or 2 that mattered, THAT would have been so much a stronger story. You see voice acting talent in an anime. I simply don't hear that. I respect you for your skills and tastes, I must be missing out on so much because I allow my better judgement to become clouded by other emotions (pissed-off-ness in this case). Maybe the sadness I felt in that scene was partly the voice acting, if so it was a subliminal thing, I didn't pick up on it specifically.
The girl (Yukumi?) who quit school after Take was killed in the first air-raid. She goes off into the woods with the militia looking for the downed enemy pilot. And gets herself killed. For no purpose at all as far as the main storyline is concerned, its just yet another (yawn) scene to get us feeling emotional. There was just too much of that kind of stuff in there.
People crying unnecessarily: Chise, Shuji, Ms. Fuyumi, her husband, Akemi, about 2 or 3 soldiers, several kids, the list goes on. Too much, way too much.
I'm going to wrap up by countering your many excellent points with a quick description of one of the huge plot loopholes that spoiled things for me. Its the 3 weeks they spend in the fishing port at the end. The military allow Chise to go off and 'hide' with this boy. She's not really hiding, we know she's not - not from them anyway, they would have surveillance systems in place to track her - a nation that constructs such an awesome weapon simply wouldn't lose it. So we know they know where she is. The agent gives Shuji the drugs. He gives them to her (after a small scene of more heartstring-pulling). At the end as the durgs wear off and she begins to go into meltdown/overload/death (whatever) he tries to kill her but cannot. Now if that were me I would kill her, knowing what she is going through and what the end will bring, its the last and greatest act of love he can give her. So he fails (why? Cowardice? Selfishness?) and for no apparent reason runs outside with her body. And outside is the agent - oh, what a co-incidence. And minutes later an army helicopter arrives and takes her away.
Now for all these three weeks the war has been going on and presumably the military are struggling. They know where she is but they don't come and get her on day 2 they leave it 20 more days, 20 days in which their nation continues to suffer. The only purpose this serves is to treat the viewer to their 3 week stay in the port and drag more emotion out of us.
And then the agents kills himself... like wtf? Why?
It's plot holes like that which annoy me so much.
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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 02.18.2007, 09:42 AM.
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| 02.18.2007, 09:38 AM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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quote:
I'm going to wrap up by countering your many excellent points with a quick description of one of the huge plot loopholes that spoiled things for me. Its the 3 weeks they spend in the fishing port at the end. The military allow Chise to go off and 'hide' with this boy. She's not really hiding, we know she's not - not from them anyway, they would have surveillance systems in place to track her - a nation that constructs such an awesome weapon simply wouldn't lose it. So we know they know where she is. The agent gives Shuji the drugs. He gives them to her (after a small scene of more heartstring-pulling). At the end as the durgs wear off and she begins to go into meltdown/overload/death (whatever) he tries to kill her but cannot. Now if that were me I would kill her, knowing what she is going through and what the end will bring, its the last and greatest act of love he can give her. So he fails (why? Cowardice? Selfishness?) and for no apparent reason runs outside with her body. And outside is the agent - oh, what a co-incidence. And minutes later an army helicopter arrives and takes her away.
Well, i think i can fix this "plot hole" easily enough.
Chise was created to be the ultimate weapon to save their area, protect them from dying. After using her against a co-olition of other nations forces, thier was the decision to go for MAD (mutually assured destruction). Now if the japanese force which would be rather small if the world is ganging up on them is getting decimated, with Chise being the only thing preventing their takeover, and the situation has changed to where everyone is going to die. Why not let Chise go? they owe her, she has been psycologically and physically destroyed to benefit the greater good, now is thier turn to repay the favour, let her live for 3 weeks normally untill her medicine runs out, she will break down, and the rest of the world gets destroyed. They couldnt stop it with her so why bother? They took her back and erased the real Chise yet she still retained somethign, she and Shuuji hooked up and Chise destroys everything but him knowing that he was all that she could save and the world ceases to exist. The agent kills himself because he knew that the end was comign hew didnt feel like waiting.
I think that clears thign up, and I respect your opinion, but it is to each his own. I loved the anime, it was touching made me keep watching, it made me forget i was watrching an anime and let myself go in the story. That is really al you can, i understand where your coming from with the cliches and "plot holes" but find me somethign completely original, Evangelion is arguabley the best anime ever, find me some cliches in that, bet you can sit 10, im sure there are several plot holes, too. everything that is created by humans has a finite numeber of possibilites, we have run out of interesting new ideas. Look at the box office films in your city. here is a quick rundown of mine:
Ghost Rider -> Cliche Marvel money grabber, standard superhero movie.
Bridge to Terabithia-> Lord of the Rings-esque cash grabber, trying to capitalize on a fad movie type.
Epic Moive-> stupid parody movie, a million more like it.
Music and Lyrics-> Another Huge Grant Romantic Comedy, yawn.
four currently playing movie plus several others are complete rip-offs of other films, now these are going to make a few million at the box office and all will be right with the world. same goes for anime, everything is derivitive. Nothing/very few can stand on their own as original, and the original ones are the truly great ones. Is Saikano derivitive? yes, i can't say that it isn't. but i liked the slightly different take on this one. Yes it has a war setting, wrapped in their you have a love story, the fighting against all odds. the best reason i can say for liign it, is maybe ive seen so much pain in my life i can relate better, and when archetypes connect, you can get things better, I guess all i can say is, to each his own.
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| 02.18.2007, 12:39 PM |
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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan when archetypes connect, you can get things better
That might be the truest thing written in this whole long (and boring) thread. Nothing in Saikano connected to me, touched me. For the people who do connect to the message it sends then I can see how powerful an effect it could have.
Look at what many people see as a pretty ordinary girl-boy love story called Whisper of the Heart. And how that has affected me.
Nuff said.
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| 02.18.2007, 12:58 PM |
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Roarkiller
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I'm single. Would that explain everything?
About that plot hole, this may be just my opinion, but personally I believe #1sanfan is wrong.
That's not JUST an agent. He is the one IN CHARGE of Chise. Whatever he says, goes. And he allowed Chise to spend those three weeks away from her duties.
Realize, though, that he still has a job to do, and he has to do it no matter how reluctant he is (he lost his family in that air raid, remember). So instead of forcing Chise to go back like before, he does what any military personnel with half a brain would do- cut off her supplies, wait for them to run out.
In other words, her medicine.
He GAVE those medicine to Shuuji not because he wanted him to continue supporting her, but to tell him how much she needed them to survive. Shuuji WANTS Chise to survive. Medicine runs out.
Gee, wonder what he'll do next. Oh yeah, give her to people who can save her of course. I.E. the military  "
And THAT was why the "agent" was waiting outside their house. He wasn't coincidentally there. He was there all along, because he knows the outcome of the inevitable. He was just waiting him to hand Chise over, and as it shows, Shuuji realizes it too.
Of course, once that's done, and as we see, Chise ends up completely non-human, and the agent realizes this, of course. He doesn't want to, yet there's no choice. I think at this point, he doesn't believe that Chise had a chance of retunrning to normal ever again, meaning he could no longer protect the couple. With nothing left to do he commits suicide as repentance for his sins.
You mentioned EVA having a reason for them children being 14. I think you missed the part where Chise mentioned that she was the only one with the right physical structure for the project. And don't you argue that it's just a reason for the directors to use a cute girl, cuz I can easily use the same reason on EVA.
My DVD's with my friend, and it's been a while since I saw the show, but I believe Chise mentioned that it was her choice to go through the experiment, to be "useful".
And they used a war storyline because... well... they wanted to use a war setting? Ey, as good an excuse as any other if you ask me.
...
This is getting fun. C'mon saddle, everyone, bring it ON, baby, YEAH!
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 02.19.2007, 07:33 AM |
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Miyrru
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I think we needed some good actual discussion. And yeah i was probably wrong, it was a Good series so its possible is missed or misunderstood something. it happens, im human(as far as i know) i make mistakes, and i can only absorb so much. and your right roarkiller, Chise chooses to be the weapon, your memory hasn't given out.
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Post last edited by Miyrru on 02.19.2007, 04:58 PM.
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| 02.19.2007, 04:58 PM |
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Saddletank
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I'm one of these people who has a short tolerance span. If something annoys me or doesn't satisfy me in some way within say the first 15 minutes I become hardened to it. I got annnoyed by Saikano early on due to what I saw as repeated unnecessary crying. And what I saw as shallow characters.
Going off on an irrelevant tangent, there needed to be a mix of sexes in EVA in order for Shinji/Anno to show us his fears and demons. A gang of boys piloting the EVAs wouldn't hav eworked, it needed to be a story about relationships - esp the difficulty of relationships with the opposite sex (and parents of course).
So the cute girls of violently different characters were essential to the story.
But leaving that aside I will probably watch Saikano again, it seems that it deserves a second viewing. It seems I have missed a lot first time through (unlike you Roar, I almost never get the most from a movie or series with one viewing - I get a strong impression and strong emotions but I miss details).
I just did not see that link with the 3 weeks in teh fishing port being teh military's plan to get Chise back and make her into 100% machine.
At the end, before the apocalyptic scene, she and Shuji made love, numerous times (we're told) on that observation platform. If at that point she'd had all her human attributes removed(*) why did that happen - I'm lost there.
(*) I don't mean reproductive organs, I mean the mental faculty to physically bond with another human, to understand Shuji's need to have physical contact.
I will give this series another chance, but I do still see to many weak characters and too many emotional scenes casually thrown in to elicit a certain response from the viewer, and I despise being led along like that.
Don't recall Chise ever saying she'd agreed to the 'work' being done to her - if she was given the option then for f***s sake, why agree? When she was a normal kid with a crush on a cute guy...?
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| 02.19.2007, 08:50 PM |
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Miyrru
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she chose to have the initial altering, but the subsequent "additions" i believe were just whatever they did to her growing.
Eva was about relationships, i but i think it has more to do with the relationship with ones self. i can understand that how one acts around others can usually be how they act to themselves i still see others as a lesser point. its more self discoverfy/come to terms/understanding than boy-girl relationships.
mainly because, Rei is his mothers clone and has no real attachment to anything or has emotions rather. adn Asuka is Asuka. nuff said.
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| 02.19.2007, 09:09 PM |
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Roarkiller
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*spoilers from the OVA*
Chise, according to my memory at least, volunteered for the experiment (no, this ain't the spoiler). But I think she "volunteered" for it a long time before she ever met Shuuji.
And the military didn't further develop her. That was why they needed a certain physical structure; the weapon was supposed to GROW in her. Basically, self-reproducing, to put it in a way. All she really needs is "repairs, because she is a weapon, and medicine, because she is human", to put it in the words of one of her superiors.
But her development as a weapon was virtually beyond the control of the military; it just grows within her, albeit with some minror help from the scientist.
In fact, I think it was mentioned; the more she acts like a weapon, the more she will grow as one. That was IMO why she agreed to run away, to stunt the process. But I think I also heard something along the line of the medicine also having some part in her development as a weapon.
Basically, the medicine was a two-edged sword. Helps her, but at the same time destroys her.
Anyway, I think I should give you a heads-up on something; japanese anime, and culture in general, don't give you everything on a silver platter. Even most of their jokes are in the form of dialogue that at least requires some form of interpretation instead of plain blatant humour (see Suzumiya Haruhi), unlike american cartoons.
PS: Did I ever mention that I can usually capture most of a film in one viewing, and almost everything by the second? That part of my memory is surprisingly reliable.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
Post last edited by Roarkiller on 02.20.2007, 06:36 AM.
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| 02.20.2007, 06:33 AM |
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Miyrru
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interesting
i have a sorta photographic memory, and i tend ot grasp the jist of everything in the first go over. Certian if im not really into somethign i tend to be unable to make out what its telling me. Thats good that you can do that i wish my memory was a tad more reliable.
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| 02.20.2007, 04:25 PM |
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Roarkiller
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quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan
interesting
i have a sorta photographic memory, and i tend ot grasp the jist of everything in the first go over. Certian if im not really into somethign i tend to be unable to make out what its telling me. Thats good that you can do that i wish my memory was a tad more reliable.
Actually, that's pretty common. Stuff that you find to be very ineteresting, have a strong impression or just something that you were really paying attention to, tend to stick in your mind.
For me, I generally can recall stuff visually, like what happens EXACTLY at a certain point of time (if I remember that moment). It's how I can write that TCR review after seeing it once, and the whole movie after the second viewing.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 02.21.2007, 10:41 AM |
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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan Rei is his mothers clone and has no real attachment to anything or has emotions rather.
Argh! If I hear anyone say again that Rei has no emotions I'll scream. She shows a fair bit of emotion - anger (slapping Shinji), embarrassment/shyness (when he cleans her apartment), happiness (talking to Gendo), sadness (tears), joy (that smile).
But I hope your post meant something else - the sentence I quote is not clear in its meaning.
quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan Asuka is [just] Asuka.
No one would argue with that.
As a counter to the Rei=no emotion argument I get fed up with hearing, I always say Asuka=too much emotion. The two girls are, after all, two opposites designed that way to advance the story.
Hm, back on topic...
Roar, OK, your commitment and support of this series have twisted my arm. I will give it another watch. AN dtry to leave my earlier prejuduces at the door.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 02.21.2007, 06:25 PM.
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| 02.21.2007, 06:25 PM |
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Roarkiller
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Be good if you do that. To help you along, I think I'll put you in this mentality; imagine a real strained relationship, where in the beginning, it's just frustatiing (hey, they broke off, remember?) That's the way you felt, so you just have to build it back or see it in another light.
On Rei... oh, Rei.
He who says that Rei has no emotions is obviously not a big fan of her.
Any self-respecting Rei fan knows that it's not that Rei doesn't have feelings. It's that she doesn't know what feelings are, and how to express them. She feels them: joy, sadness, anger, fear, anxiety. It's just that the way she was cloned/brought up left her unable to understand emotions very well.
For the skeptics, remember that she slapped Shinji once, she kept Gendo's spectacles, she talked back to Asuka once on the elevator, she blushed... the list goes on.
...
Yes, I love Rei. Got a problem with that?
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
Post last edited by Roarkiller on 02.22.2007, 10:04 AM.
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| 02.22.2007, 10:03 AM |
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Miyrru
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who would have a problem with loving rei, she is awesome.
I cant argue that she has no emotionsbut on the average eye, its hard to tell. the scence when they fight Ramiel, and Shinji pulls her out of her plug, and she says something to the effect of " i dont know how to express myself right now" is a dead giveaway to the fact that she doesnt know what feelings are.
another prime example is here poem in episode 14. Its the only time where she gives some
backgorund about herself.she is very intriging character.
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| 02.22.2007, 05:29 PM |
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Saddletank
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I think she is my favourite anime character so far in my short experience of watching anime. And much of that fascination is because she is an emotional person but trapped in a soul that can't express those emotions.
Plus the sense of innocence the above causes.
Plus her great vulnerability caused by the below opinion:
One of my least favourite characters in anime ever is Ikari Gendo. The man is obviously intelligent, wise and planning for the right future, it's just the deranged and almost perverse (paedophilic) way he uses to accomplish his plan.
At the very end when Rei finally rejected him, my cheer could have been heard at the other end of the street.
Hm, we seem to have created another NGE thread. How did that happen?
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| 02.22.2007, 06:37 PM |
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