Ghibli Tavern - Princess Nine Revisited

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Princess Nine Revisited

Well, i have finally completed my series and i have some intersting insights on it and now anime in general after stewing on the show for a bit. Now i have a question that can actually start some discussion about anime in general, which is good because this site has been pretty quite so here we go and bear with me.

First off, i have seen the following series and moives mostly through completion, i do tend to get a tad sidetracked sometimes
-Neon Genesis Evangelion complete
Series
-Princess Nine complete
-Saikano complete
-Stellvia of the Universe complete
-Azumanga Daioh - 22 eps
-Serial Experiments Lain - Half
Films
-porco rosso
-Laputa
-Kiki's
-Spirited Away
-Mononoke
-Howls
-Whisper of the Heart
-Naussica
- on your mark(not really a film, but i enjoyed it)
-ghost in the shell 1
-Akira
-NGE end of eva
-NGE 25 and 26

okay so thats a quick sum up of what ive seen, a pretty good kailidoscope. i have a good idea of what is out there. now most of these are the standard drama/adventure like all the Miayazaki films. There are the comedy in Azu daioh, the Sci Fi in Stellvia, the Hardcore in NGE and SEL even Akira and GITS, but Princess Nine rubbed me in a different direction not necissarily the wrong way, here is how i will break the sereis down:

First off, the majority of the major charachters are all female, the art is a solid yet unspectacular style which is servicable to get its point across.

It is absolutly riddled with cliches, and i mean riddled. SPOILER WARNING!
The main female lead, Ryo is a child in a single parent family(cliche), who is raised by her mother whos husband used to be a great baseball player(cliche), the girl has the talent of her father(cliche), but only uses it to help out a group of amatuers in there sandlot games(cliche), She is discovered by some rich and wealthy lady, Keiko, with connections to her father(cliche) and decides to take it upon herself to start a girls baseball team to avenge Ryo's father(cliche). Keiko has a daughter Izumi, who wants nothing to do with her mother due to feuds in the past(cliche). Keiko signs up a coach and hands out scholar ships to the other members on the team and tries to go against the grain and prove that they can compete with the boys schools(cliche).
they start there team and they have to compete in several entry games to prove themselves as the face team difficulties(cliche), Izumi who now has a vendetta with Ryo over sports and the love triangle of them and the boys team star, Takasugi(cliche). the girls battle each other and Izumi being the cold b-i-t-c and you can finish that, is a major downer to the moral of the team, but is the voice of reason when needed(cliche).

now skip to the end,
with the boys and girls schools run by Keiko, play each other in the finals, Ryo having to battle fatigue and emotional distress goes up against the odds with her team mounting a desperate comeback(cliche), haveing to face the boy, takasugi who confesses his love for Ryo, breaking the triangle and then procceding to hit a homerun to wint he game for his team, while the girls team loses and has to wait for next year.(cliche).
SPOILERS OVER

Okay now lets look at what i tried to prove, i have seen a who 26 episode series and sumed it up briefly, and showing the multi cliches involved, what i did was pretty much sum the first few and last eps, but the middle is all the same too, cliches full. this makes me wonder, and here is the question that i want a some people to answer :Is it possible to create a spontaneous story, where there is no inner meaning or message and is just there for the sake of entertainment?

Ryo's father in the series is based on a real player, and i think personally that Ryo herself is based on the new japanese sensational pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka. who has recently become a star for the Boston Red Sox.
But regardless, is there anyother series that you can explain have no deeper meaning? i enjoyed the series, and plan on watching it to the end again and writing a fan fiction cause i want it to keep going and i love baseball and have free time enough to do it.

But here is another relavent point, Maybe NEG is not as complex as it is made out to be, perhaps we are just overblowing it like many people did after the first Matrix film, that movie became a relgion overnight and it is puely fiction, are we perhaps goign to deep, looking where there is none. to close off my point, and i hope you gusy kept up with what i mean, my english skills are a bit cumsy sometimes, and my point gets lost, but anwer the bolded question, give some insight. A bit of a triva ending: JRR Tolkien had said several times that LOTR has NO inner meaning and is a story pure and simple, if a work that took up his life have no meaning, why cant other forms of media, like novels, films and anime, which i aquaint closest to novels than regualer live action film be pure and simple entertainment.

Your turn.

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04.16.2007, 05:07 PM

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I skipped all your spoiler stuff but caught your end comment.

People will ALWAYS read into anime and any other TV show or movie (or book, or music or sculpture or poem or painting) what they want to. You simply cannot stop that. People bring to a movie all their own personal baggage and history and problems and fears and perversions and whatever, all the junk that makes them, them.

When I see "Whisper of the Heart" it touches me powerfully in so many places, for so many reasons. I will see things in it the writer and director did not intend. I can't help doing that, its my persona interpreting the images I see in front of me on the screen. Yet Mr X sitting beside me will not be touched by it at all. It'll be a vanilla-y anime shoujo love story. End of.

Both responses are valid. There is no wrong response to any piece of art. Any art snob who tells you otherwise is merely that. An art-snob.

So, given that the viewer of a piece of animated media will bring in all his/her own interpretations, don't you think the writer of that same piece of art is going to bring in theirs? In spades?

I have only recently, in the last six months got back into writing in a serious way. I am finding that something like 75% of what I write comes not from the anime I'm doing a fanfic of, or from the necessary plot I'm thinking of but inside me, my own personal likes, dislikes, fears, loves, my past. Autobiography is all it's about really.

I'm sure I'm not alone in writing like this.

I'm sure that NGE is really as deep as the fans say it is because Anno was exorcising himself of some seriously deep trauma when he wrote it. You can watch Totoro and see great depth in it, you can see chunks of Miyazaki's childhood in there screaming to be noticed.

Everybody who creates a piece of art, whether it be a mind bogglingly complex 100 episode anime show or a charcoal scribble on paper is creating something from the heart, a piece of them, something they care about. So it would be quite unusual for a team of people to (say) get together and produce a totally superficial surface-only piece of anime only for simple entertainment. I think it would actually be much harder to produce superficial trash than something from the gut, something you cared about because you'd have to consciously look into yourself all the time, even try and dig into your subconscious and make a definite act of will to exclude any personal junk.

And if you did that, what would be your inspiration???

And even then a bunch of otakus will see stuff in it, the search for meaning in life (whether that be getting religion, marrying a footballer or watching anime and seeing things that aren't there) is simply human nature. You can't fight it.

Enough, someone else add an opinion.

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Post last edited by Saddletank on 04.16.2007, 06:13 PM.

04.16.2007, 06:07 PM

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Oh, and one more thing. Watch the other half of SEL, you are so missing out on an amazing mind-blowingly lovely treat.

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04.16.2007, 06:17 PM

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I also need to complete SEL. I'll get the DVDs because I never get round to anything on the internet.

Anyhoo, also about the end stuff:
Of course something can be created just for the sake of entertainment.
And anybody can say that they created something for the sake of entertainment.
However, whether deeper meanings are intended or not, people will forever seek meanings. And even if there was never supposed to be a meaning to find, there is nearly always something there. Tolkien may have said that his epic Lord of the Rings saga was simply a story, but having taken so much time and having spent so much effort on it, something will inevitably have rubbed off on the work. People seeked meanings, and found meanings that Tolkien didn't realise existed, showing that a meaning only exists if it can be found, and can't be misproved if not found.

Meanings are not necessarily intentional things. Although many things have been created to convey certain ideas, subliminal or otherwise, most meanings are simply about what people see in something.

Now, if you think about all that, try and say again that nothing has a meaning.

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04.17.2007, 11:30 AM

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I value both of your input, it is interesting to read, but arren you are missing the Tolkien point.

Tolkien has had others come in and say that these stories are based on WW2 or that his major theme is death because he was a soldier in WW1, they also did something that most of us are guilty of, trying to get the autor to give them there meanings, by providing answers.

Tolkien had always says that he did not use WW2 as a reference, and he hated when people would adopt his charachters and have them get married or so forth. Here is a person who rejected everyone elses view on his work.

But the thing is that he didnt intend any meanings but people found some. they made up there own meanings. they found something that isnt there.

There is also the appeals to emotion, which is a logical fallacy in almost every work, ill use Whisper as an example, Im a tad rusty on it, havent seen it in a while so Saddles dont tear me up if i get this wrong, but the story is supposed to be heartwarming, it makes you feel good inside. well, guess what? it now has you thinking exactly like you want it to. it will provide you other emotions and keep you feeling,so you cant think. Anyone can say 'its just a story, i dont understand it and dont think it is very good' if you respond that i would be wrong, then you fell into the fallacy trap.

simple put: the movie made you feel so much, you forgot to think. now i dont want to sound like a total jack@$$ but try this out for a second, if you can go watching something and be neutral, and not fall for the fallicies, are there really any meanings?

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04.17.2007, 03:34 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan if you can go watching something and be neutral, and not fall for the fallicies, are there really any meanings?

I can't be neutral when I watch movies, please don't ask me to be, it's not in my nature. You might as well ask me to stop breathing. Roarkiller might be able to help you out there. I hope he drops by this thread and contributes.

But if I try and watch Whisper without being emotionally involved then yes there is still hidden meaning in many scenes, it was written that way. I know it was.

You're asking "is there an anime that hasn't any hidden meanings?" and I'm saying "Not that I know of, and if there was why on earth would someone make such a thing? What would its point and value be?"

Yes, I know Tolkein got cross with some comments about his work. His original plan was to create something in the English language akin to the great Icelandic Sagas of the 11th and 12th centuries. The problem being of course that those great sagas were 90% symbolism and drew on a strong pagan religious pantheon and so on...

So if he says there is no hidden meaning he based his work on a bad example with which to support that claim.

But anyway, Tolkein's trilogy is one of the best examples of how not to create a simple story that people won't read things into - because its not a simple story and it appears to have allegorical references (the elves going into the west is so obviously heaven to some people for example) and thus (to mix metaphors) the Ring trilogy has some of the most serious otakuness on the planet.

You were asking is it possible to make a completely superficial anime that people won't read meanings into?

My answer is no. People need to see meaning even when none exists, its a deep need we (almost all) have.

And commercially I don't think any anime studio would contemplate such a project - sales would be crap wouldn't they?

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04.17.2007, 04:56 PM

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Good points, you are very well read, one of the reasons i thought of this is that my philosophy teacher is a bit of a crack pot, but he has a good way of delivering his message, we did spend i think 2 days arguing if oyu can put a price on a view, he argued the no half to briliant fashion, but regardless, it made me think and thinking brings up interesting discussions like this one.

to adress what you said, it is good that you brought up Tolkiens work was infact to give England a mythology to replace any that may have been lost in 1066's normand invasion. so i cant say his work didnt have meaning period, he wanted to do have a mythology and he made the greatest fiction work of all time.

to address my neutal point you gave me a bit of fuel, as you are in fact, biased. Now that makes your data tained, i understand what you are saying but, it gives me this point: Why couldnt you find anything in Saikano? it played on emotion the WHOLE way through, the entire series was an appeal to improper emotion, it was just trying to evoke menaing through emotions, but you didnt 'get' anything from it so the fallicies didnt work for you and you saw it as being a bad piece of work. now my question for you is this why did Whisper have it and Saikano not? if you were to scrutinize both heavily, they would probably be pretty similar, yeah, they are different stories, but everythign plays on emotion, and on that level they are similar.

oh and the sales wouldnt be bad if you could make one, it the day we live in, and the marketing skills that people posses, you can make anyone buy anything.

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04.17.2007, 05:22 PM

Roarkiller
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I think I can safely say that I know the anime world better than any of you guys.

Pretty much 99% of anime out there are created with no deeper meaning. They are created for the sole purpose of creating anime, for creating enjoyment, for entertainment, which a lot of people fail to see the first time round.

Think Shounen Jump, unless you've never heard of it, then meh.

Anime is, in the end, just another form of entertainment.

VERY few anime actually comes across as actual art. People see NGE as deep and complicated because the creator was an emotional wreck at that time, and because he mentioned it as based on his depression (or something along that line), and therefore people take it upon themselves to interpret things that never needed interpretating.

Same goes to ghibli films.

Miyazaki's one wish was for his films to be enjoyed. He never asked for them to be analysed; in fact, he made an OFFICIAL statement that he would PREFER if people not read too deep into his movies.

The problem with people like us is that we don't really know how to "appreciate" art. For works like this, you first need to know the intention of the creator, and the process. A lot of people forget about the process, which is part and parcel of the artwork.

For example, SA was created because of Miyazaki's vision of kids nowadays being spoilt brats, or something along that line. And he also wanted to portray a heroine who, in the face of adversities, managed to call up her inner strengths to fight through the trials.

And yet you see all the reviews of Alice in Wonderland stories, or of how Chihiro grew as a person (when Miyazaki clearly said she didn't), or of how love prevailed and saved the day (they was never any proof that Chihiro and Haku loved each other, other than Kamajii's speculation).

The final point of criticism is, in the end, it's all personal opinion, even down to the creator's own comments (which is still his own opinions). You can have a million critics putting down a painting, but if one critic says it's good, then it's still good (to him).

There's really no point in arguing, because opinions are simply what we think, and not facts.

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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

04.18.2007, 01:28 AM

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quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan
they found something that isnt there.

If they found it, it was there. Sometimes not everyone is aware of what does and doesn't exist. Some people can find certain things and other people find different things.

Saying that it is based on WWII is wrong though. The basis of a story cannot be argued if the author has explained, even if the meaning to it can.

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04.18.2007, 12:40 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by arren18
quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan
they found something that isnt there.

If they found it, it was there. Sometimes not everyone is aware of what does and doesn't exist. Some people can find certain things and other people find different things.

Saying that it is based on WWII is wrong though. The basis of a story cannot be argued if the author has explained, even if the meaning to it can.

your still missing a philosophical point, and thanks Roarkiller, very good insight and proves my point a bit more.

Now arren, again, just because you found something doesnt mean its there, Roar eludes tot his in the SA example of Chihiro growing as a person, if some see it and others dont, doesnt mean its there. that is an Ad Populum fallacy, that mean simply, just because a large group of people believe in it, doesnt make it true. Religion is a good exapmle, just becaue there are a billion christians, doesnt make God real.

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04.18.2007, 03:22 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller There's really no point in arguing, because opinions are simply what we think, and not facts.

I know some people do get a bit excited about this subject and people do argue. I hope you were referring to those people and not us here. I don't see this as arguing and I think its very enjoyable to bounce opinions around providing respect for those whose opinions differ remains.

Saikano unfortunately caught me early on with a lot of scenes that I interpreted as being simply there to drag an emotional response out of the viewer (well, out of me anyway). Scenes where the characters seemed to be crying a lot but too early in the story for me to have invested any sense of attachment to them, so their crying was shallow and pointless. Had the first really emotional stuff started to happen on about ep 4 or 5 then I would have probably loved it and been sucked in, sobbing and dribbling snot like I was in training for the Olympic Snot Dribbling finals.

Once I got annoyed by it I stubbornly refused to see anything good in it, I kept seeing these heavy heavy emo scenes which were without any emo at all.

My view of it is that its emotional timing is all wrong.

I haven't seen it a second time but do plan to.

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04.18.2007, 03:44 PM

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Great Post, and that is a good excerpt from Roarkiller, because im argueing a point, and not bickering and fighting about it, im trying to get some thinking going on, and it has worked good.

That is good points Saddles as, it did really come out with a pointless emotional theme that was predominant in every episode and didnt really get anywhere from a to b. but this brings up that some anime are a little better at coaxing its themes at you, i say Miayazaki is a grand master at this, as its easy to pick things apart, whither they are there or not because of excellent timing and pacing, i guess this shows the skills at directing of Kondo and Saikano's director as being a bit different.

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Post last edited by Miyrru on 04.18.2007, 03:55 PM.

04.18.2007, 03:54 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan
just because you found something doesnt mean its there, Roar eludes tot his in the SA example of Chihiro growing as a person, if some see it and others dont, doesnt mean its there. that is an Ad Populum fallacy, that mean simply, just because a large group of people believe in it, doesnt make it true. Religion is a good exapmle, just becaue there are a billion christians, doesnt make God real.

I see what your saying, but the example is different from what I mean. It's like I said about the people assuming LOTR was about WWII. Physical existence requires proof, but meanings and ideals can be found anywhere, whether they ought to or not.

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04.18.2007, 04:15 PM

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Sure, i guess people can find meanings and ideals, but if many people find alot of different ideals or meanings, which one is correct? they all can't be or can they?

it is impossible to take away a meaning from someone if they believe they found one, but the belief that they found one is not proof that it exists. This would lead me to think that while they may have a paradigm shift based on something they found, it may really not be there, i find it interesting that we can interpret things, to bend them to serve our purposes in literature and fiction.

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04.18.2007, 05:21 PM

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On Saikano, I enjoyed it because the VAs did a very good job at playing their roles, and the director did a good job at the series on more than a few occasions.

But in the end, it was still made just for entertainment.

For references on interpretation and stuff, I suggest you read The Da Vinci's code. There's one part on the Swiss's bank's key that pretty much explains everything.

And for added flavouring: the majority isn't always right. After all, the world was flat until a few centuries ago.

EDIT: If you want a good chance to find hidden meanings, one movie I'd suggest is Whale Rider. Should keep people like saddle busy for weeks.

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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

Post last edited by Roarkiller on 04.19.2007, 12:39 AM.

04.19.2007, 12:37 AM

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quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan
Sure, i guess people can find meanings and ideals, but if many people find alot of different ideals or meanings, which one is correct? they all can't be or can they?

it is impossible to take away a meaning from someone if they believe they found one, but the belief that they found one is not proof that it exists. This would lead me to think that while they may have a paradigm shift based on something they found, it may really not be there, i find it interesting that we can interpret things, to bend them to serve our purposes in literature and fiction.

It's an arguable subject, and gets confusing once you delve into the concept of reality. We're pretty much in agreement now though, so maybe we should just leave it at that.

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04.19.2007, 12:05 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller But in the end, it was still made just for entertainment.

As is all anime. But while some anime is clearly tat, some anime that is made is (while still "just entertainment" ) also full of very interesting stuff that the writers intended the viewer to explore, wonder about and generally pick apart. SEL is top of my list for this, although I know there is odder/deeper stuff out there.

Saikano I think has parts in it the writers intended the viewer to think about, especially stuff like identity, choice and so on (at the end particularly).

And don't get me started on the Da Vinci Code. Biggest load of b******t ever written, a pack of nonesense from cover to cover. I read it once then read it a second time to convince myself people surely wouldn't actually believe this (not even particularly well written) tripe, discovered they did and threw it away. Never saw the movie, never want to.

quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan
Sure, i guess people can find meanings and ideals, but if many people find alot of different ideals or meanings, which one is correct? they all can't be or can they?

But generally this doesn't happen. You tend to get major 'camps' of people who agree some things (for example they might think Lain is a Christ-figure) and then you'll get major groups who think differently. If 999 people thought Lain wasn't a Christ-figure and only 1 did (I'm going hypothetical with this example now) then I think, (unlike Roarkiller and his art-critic example) that that 1 person is simply wrong. An opinion held by a tiny tiny minority is, to me, misinterpretation.

And is there any one piece of work where a huge number of definitely conflicting views are held?

quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan it is impossible to take away a meaning from someone if they believe they found one,

I would disagree if a person convinced them they were wrong and they then saw that, yes, they had indeed been wrong to think that Rei Ayanami was Ronald MacDonald. You can change people's minds.

quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan but the belief that they found one is not proof that it exists. This would lead me to think that while they may have a paradigm shift based on something they found, it may really not be there,

Arren18 summed up well here, you are going off at too steep an existentialist tangent now.

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Post last edited by Saddletank on 04.19.2007, 01:46 PM.

04.19.2007, 01:37 PM

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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by #1sanfan
Sure, i guess people can find meanings and ideals, but if many people find alot of different ideals or meanings, which one is correct? they all can't be or can they?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But generally this doesn't happen. You tend to get major 'camps' of people who agree some things (for example they might think Lain is a Christ-figure) and then you'll get major groups who think differently. If 999 people thought Lain wasn't a Christ-figure and only 1 did (I'm going hypothetical with this example now) then I think, (unlike Roarkiller and his art-critic example) that that 1 person is simply wrong. An opinion held by a tiny tiny minority is, to me, misinterpretation.

And is there any one piece of work where a huge number of definitely conflicting views are held?

Hmm, well, the things that come to my mind are things like the Mona Lisa, we may have a defining view on it, but unless we can ask Da Vinci what he wanted to do with the art, there isnt a clear answer to its interpretation.
me personally, i think Shakespeare has to be one of the all time worst writters ever, i do not understand why his work is so higly regarded, when on several occasions, he has simply plagarized someone elses play see: King Lear. I cant find the meaning of his works, becasue i dont see any, he was just an entertainer in a period of time that need them.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by #1sanfan it is impossible to take away a meaning from someone if they believe they found one,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would disagree if a person convinced them they were wrong and they then saw that, yes, they had indeed been wrong to think that Rei Ayanami was Ronald MacDonald. You can change people's minds.

Okay thats a bad example by you, yes, i will agree that someone who is not steadfast in there stance can flip flop like a fish on what they believe, but they are in a category where it wouldnt really matter what they think, their views dont carry weight to the rest, if you said that on an NGE hardcore website they would be like WTF? and not care, but with something that may have different courses that are plausable, then peoples views are harder to unify, or sway them to yours.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by #1sanfan but the belief that they found one is not proof that it exists. This would lead me to think that while they may have a paradigm shift based on something they found, it may really not be there,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arren18 summed up well here, you are going off at too steep an existentialist tangent now.

this isnt too much of an existentialist tangent, as im gearing more towards the existance of things that may or may not be there, im not really answering the 'why are we here' question, certian parts, i guess, of exisitentailism can be viewed at an aside without bringing in the giangantic arguement of existentialism, and
@Arren, i think we are closer to our views, just took a bit of expaling opn both our parts.

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04.19.2007, 03:40 PM

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Yeah, I think we understand each other.

I love these threads.

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04.19.2007, 03:49 PM