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Miyrru
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Well, you have to go with the age the series or movie gives, and most do give it or a very close hint (middle school or high school etc). Nausicaa is supposed to be aged 14-16, so to me she is the only Ghibli female who is proportioned outside reasonable limits. Now she *could* be that shape, there's no law against it and given that she's the only Ghibli youngster to be so drawn I can forgive Miyazaki that one, but when nearly every girl you see is an 'early developer' it gets beyond reasonable.

quote:
What I see happening, is that age is merely arbitrary, the characters are drawn to look older, but are given the younger age. I bet because "well-developed" high school age girls move more merchandise. And that is a whole other disscussion.
Your second sentence pretty much contradicts the first. The age isn't arbitrary and the characters are not drawn to look older (except in the extremely dubious loli stuff where pre-teens are made to look like late-teens... grrr...). Your second statement is the key: "big boobs sell". In this regard Ghibli's girls are even more yummy because Miyazaki chose not to sell his work under that umbrella but on other factors - quality of story being the main one.

Now I'm a normal red-blooded male and the sight of curvy girls pleases me, I'm not saying otherwise, but the issue is just about *every* anime series does it, some are better than others in reining in their artists pens and some are notoriously bad. The girls in EVA are just borderline acceptable and given that Rei is Spoiler!, highlight to read.
a manufactured body
I guess there is a canon excuse for her, but on the whole thinking I will be more likely to watch a series because of the size of the girls chests is insulting to me. I'd much rather watch a well-crafted story (e.g. Haibane where the girls are all believable shapes) than be treated like some lustful out of control teenager.

Meh. Maybe I'm simply out of the selected demographic of the intended audience. Or maybe enough males like to see big chests that there is no longer any hope for many more correctly proportioned girls...?

I mean, its been a standard tactic for ever to get men interested in something - cheerleaders in sport, babes draped over cars at shows comes to mind.


Well, its hard to say that all series do it. I think its more noticeable with series that don't do it. The standard is slightly unrealistic to fairly unrealistic.

Mostly because im obsessive compulsive that way, and I keep track of all the series i've seen, out of the 30, not counting movies or OVAs. I can think of maybe 5: Mushishi, Princess Nine, NGE(to an extent), Ef ~ A Tale of Memories, and Clannad(and its a stretch). Then there are a few border lines. Most of the series arent a problem though because although the girls didn't look like they should as per ages, they weren't horribly obvious candidates to exist just to market to men.

The demographics are key too. Younger men aren't liable to care as much. Increases in hormones perhaps or whatever you want to call it, but the older you get, you can step back from it easier and look at it and see the problem because you care less for that sort of thing. I might be over stepping and speaking for most people but yeah. I agree that it is a problem when it gets ridiculous, but meh. Take that Clannad pic I posted, Nagisa(middle) is supposed to be 18. She looks like shes 18 to me, Kotomi next to her is a year younger, its a bit of a stretch, but from 17s that ive seen, its passable. So its not a big deal to me, only in extreme cases, and mostly in harems. In more serious shows that stress the story a little more, things like a Haibane, Mushi-shi, even a Baccano!, there are noticeably less of an issue.


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Saddletank
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I don't know the series you took that picture from but I would say that the centre girl is into the "unrealistic" category by a long way. That is easily a D cup if not more. What % of the female adult population is that shape? 1%? 2%? Maybe 3% at most, but I doubt it. And yet she is 'normal' in most anime.

Yeah, there are always sensibly proportioned characters out there in a variety of series but on the whole the shapes are silly - Haruhi and Mikuru are two more examples. Misato is another.

If you saw a girl that shape in the street you couldn't help but stop and stare. A normal shape is one where you wouldn't have that reaction.

What makes the shapes more extreme is many girls look like they have 20-inch waists too.

I guess the market wants it on the whole...


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Post last edited by Saddletank on 04.22.2008, 05:22 PM.

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May I just say I agree totally with this against-unproportional anime females as well but I dont think some of them are that unrealistic.

I mean im 14 right? I have at least 3 people in my class who are *ahem* fairly well developed. And plenty others in my year. I dont think its that strange for 14 + girls too have *ahem* well developed-ness

But of course within reason.

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Miyrru
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Mikuru? Are you sure? I think even Haruhi is borderline.

The proportions of the rest of the body can also be a factor. Arms, legs etc, are rather thing. It accentuates the chest area, so that is just another tool animators use.

The series is Clannad btw. Its like like Air/Kanon, but lesser so. Art was really well done imo. I thought that series wasn't bad. It is probably just that shot, but for the whole, it was not that bad imo.


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quote:
Originally posted by Miyrru
Mikuru? Are you sure?
Yep. She's huge. Come on! As the older version in her 20s she's even more outrageous.

quote:
I think even Haruhi is borderline.
But what %age of high school girls IRL are that shape? It just isn't realistic.

I don't know - maybe N America is different with everyone being curvier but in the UK that shape is in an extreme minority. One in 50 say.

I still love the characters and the show, don't get me wrong, it doesn't detract or make me annoyed, it would be just nicer to see more average shapes, I could relate to the people better.


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Miyrru
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@Saddles, that was my bad. I guess my brain is still a little fried from school. I thought you meant that those two 'were' realistic. I agree that they aren't thats my fault for not paying attention hehe.


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quote:
Originally posted by Nausicaa_Cat
May I just say I agree totally with this against-unproportional anime females as well but I dont think some of them are that unrealistic.

I mean im 14 right? I have at least 3 people in my class who are *ahem* fairly well developed. And plenty others in my year. I dont think its that strange for 14 + girls too have *ahem* well developed-ness

But of course within reason.



My daughter was very depressed at 13/14 yrs. many of her friends had 'matured' (some starting as young as 8-10) and my daughter? nothing to speak of, depressed her something awful... She prayed hard for 'something' to happen... Goes to show that you need to watch what you pray for, your prayers might be answered better than you expected... It seemed like it happened overnight, but by the time she was 15/16... (boom) a 36D... Now she hated it because it hurt when she ran in PE and she didn't like some of the attention that she started getting...


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The reality is real, Husky, I'm not doubting it for a minute, but we're discussing anime which doesn't make any sense unless it's to boost sales. It's almost become a style statement like big eyes and no noses.


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Perhaps because it's easier to draw big eyes and noses are hard.

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husky51
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
The reality is real, Husky, I'm not doubting it for a minute, but we're discussing anime which doesn't make any sense unless it's to boost sales. It's almost become a style statement like big eyes and no noses.



Oh, I do understand that profit is a big (pun intended) motive for this style of art... Whether many of us are not really into it, enough ppl are, and that is where the bucks, pounds, yen, etc are...

And you may also be right, Kiki...


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arren18
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
I think even Haruhi is borderline.
But what age of high school girls IRL are that shape? It just isn't realistic.

I wouldn't say it's unrealistic. And I'm a high school boy, so I would know.


Anyway, I did sincerely hope that my lovely thread wouldn't get turned into a boob discussion...


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quote:
Originally posted by arren18 I wouldn't say it's unrealistic. And I'm a high school boy, so I would know.
I'm not picking on you here specifically Arren, just that your post was conveniently to hand to allow me to quote it. In discussions like this people will always say things like "Yeah I know this girl in my class who is like that..." and they think that proves the point that those sorts of body shapes are normal/realistic when depicted in anime. But it doesn't, it proves the opposite - that the vast marority of teenage females are not that shape, compared to the vast majority of anime girls who are.

That's
my point, that its just plain weird for whole groups of people in a series to be shaped that way, but I think you guys all know this anyway.

But seriously Arren - there are girls you know shaped like Asahina Mikuru? 20 inch waist and 32D boobs? (those are Japanese sized measurements - they have narrow backs generally due to lesser stature). Really like that? Somehow I doubt it...

quote:
Anyway, I did sincerely hope that my lovely thread wouldn't get turned into a boob discussion...

I can think of far worse subjects to talk about.

Hm, we need some more pictures, or mentions of who is liked and why.


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Post last edited by Saddletank on 04.23.2008, 08:21 AM.

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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
But seriously Arren - there are girls you know shaped like Asahina Mikuru? 20 inch waist and 32D boobs?


No idea. I've never asked a girl for her bra size. And I've never looked up an anime character's measurements either.


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Miyrru
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
Originally posted by arren18 I wouldn't say it's unrealistic. And I'm a high school boy, so I would know.
I'm not picking on you here specifically Arren, just that your post was conveniently to hand to allow me to quote it. In discussions like this people will always say things like "Yeah I know this girl in my class who is like that..." and they think that proves the point that those sorts of body shapes are normal/realistic when depicted in anime. But it doesn't, it proves the opposite - that the vast marority of teenage females are not that shape, compared to the vast majority of anime girls who are.

That's
my point, that its just plain weird for whole groups of people in a series to be shaped that way, but I think you guys all know this anyway.

But seriously Arren - there are girls you know shaped like Asahina Mikuru? 20 inch waist and 32D boobs? (those are Japanese sized measurements - they have narrow backs generally due to lesser stature). Really like that? Somehow I doubt it...

quote:
Anyway, I did sincerely hope that my lovely thread wouldn't get turned into a boob discussion...

I can think of far worse subjects to talk about.

Hm, we need some more pictures, or mentions of who is liked and why.


I guess we can sum the whole thing up as a style choice. Realistic or not, the artists chose whichever style they want. There are going to half as many Mushi-shi's and Jin-Roh's as there will be Shuffle!'s and Haruhi's. There really isnt anything that says that it has to be close to a depiction of what actual body shape should be. Some people will like it or not care, and other people will take offense to it.

I'll mark Saddles down, for if he ever had the chance to draw his own series, as falling in the more realistic category. Me personally, would probably go with a Clannad style. To each his own.


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Not really a topic derailment, actually, considering that the topic is about girls

To be honest though, while I agree that off-proportionated girls aren't an everyday thing, you'd be surprised on how common they actually are. My 14-yr old cousins are practically B-cups already, and I once knew a girl that age who was bigger than most ADULT women I have seen in my life. And one of my cadets at school, albeit 16, is of the same size.

Those are only the ones I know personally.

I don't know what girls are eating these days, but somehow they just seem to be "maturing" earlier than they should.

Anyway, anime being a niche market (believe it or not) targeted at mainly otakus, it's not really that surprising a thing. Anime like Mushishi, Bokurano and Haibane Renmei are a niche within a niche, and so are far harder to find and appreciate.

But personally though, IMO it's simply the way artists draw. Girls are girls, usually drawn with curves. All they did was to slap on a school uniform and an age tagging.


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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quote:
Originally posted by arren18
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
But seriously Arren - there are girls you know shaped like Asahina Mikuru? 20 inch waist and 32D boobs?


No idea. I've never asked a girl for her bra size. And I've never looked up an anime character's measurements either.

Me neither, and no, you don’t need to. I’m just making the (exaggerated) point that I don’t think real humans are ever that shape.
8]


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Post last edited by Saddletank on 04.23.2008, 11:49 AM.

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quote:
Originally posted by Miyrru
I'll mark Saddles down, for if he ever had the chance to draw his own series, as falling in the more realistic category. Me personally, would probably go with a Clannad style. To each his own.

You’re missing the point. It’s not about personal choice, its about the anime artists and series directors NOT giving us a choice because the vast majority of them know boobs sell so they force feed them to us (no puns, I’m not in the mood for them).


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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
Originally posted by arren18
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
But seriously Arren - there are girls you know shaped like Asahina Mikuru? 20 inch waist and 32D boobs?


No idea. I've never asked a girl for her bra size. And I've never looked up an anime character's measurements either.

No, you don’t need to. I’m just making the point that I don’t think real humans are ever that shape.
8]


Well, from what I can see (without knowing sizes and such), I would say that for the most part it isn't unrealistic. Perhaps it's unlikely that there would be such a large concentration of girls that shape, but it's far from impossible.

And @ Roar: That's true, a lot of the time it is just the artist's style. Often if they were to make it any different, it wouldn't look quite right for the character.


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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
Originally posted by Miyrru
I'll mark Saddles down, for if he ever had the chance to draw his own series, as falling in the more realistic category. Me personally, would probably go with a Clannad style. To each his own.

You’re missing the point. It’s not about personal choice, its about the anime artists and series directors NOT giving us a choice because the vast majority of them know boobs sell so they force feed them to us (no puns, I’m not in the mood for them).


But you have a choice. Just not alot of options within that choice.

Roar basically already said it. We are fans of a form of entertainment that is a niche market. We, being however 'tasteful' of fan, still play second fiddle to the main market. The problem is that we would have little influence in the market. It is, like Roar said it, aimed at the Otaku's who really care about that stuff and are paying for it. Is it practically unfair that we are getting it forced down our throats? Maybe. Trust me, do you know how much offical art that is porn that I have to sift through for sig images. Ill tell you its a hell of a lot. I often wonder what purpose it serves, we it serves the target audience, which I am not a part of. If anime was marketed to everyone, maybe the style would be different. Ghibli films are a good example because on large part they are marketed to the large audience. Disney recognized this, and however the butcher it, they port the films over to a mass market, a la North America.

As more 'dignified' fans, we have little market power. Even if we all left the market, Otaku's still buy figures, pocky by the palette-load, the companies don't care, they still turn profits. We almost don't deserve a choice. Its not our call to make. I'm annoyed by fanservice and out of proportion chests as much as the next guy, but we really have no influence. We can either try our best to ignore it and watch series based on story. Or we can sift through the many series out there and exercise our small version of choice and pick series where the character design is more real.


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I rest my case

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