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foreignfilmfreak
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location: Japan
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So wait a minute.. a gay person isn't needed because they can't reproduce? I just got reminded of a classroom debate we had. My teacher is very religious, and doesn't really care if someone is gay or a lesbian or transgender, but he says he wouldn't really agree with them being gay. Yet when a few girls said gay people weren't needed, he kind of seemed.. shocked. All of us thought it was the worst comment. And it was the girls saying it that shocked him. The guys didn't.
But even if you don't agree, there are still gay people. And they likely aren't going to want to reproduce willingly with the opposite sex. It was what we talked about in class. But they aren't useless. I know many of them would wish they could have kids with one another. It's one of the things that breaks them. Since they can't have kids together. It's the same with people who are infertile. Are they not needed for society? My aunt couldn't have children. Yet she was able to after some help.
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 07.28.2011, 01:51 PM |
  
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hopexx5
Totoro
Registration Date: 01.17.11
Location: UK
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Those girls must have been pretty narrow minded then to say that gays arent needed.
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| 07.28.2011, 02:06 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
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@Mushka: The stem of my argument stems from their claim, not mine. In every report or documentary about transgenders, even from first-hand discussions (yes, I've talked to some), a HUGE majority blamed god. Like, 80+%. Hence my initial statement.
To clear up a few things. I did NOT say these people are useless. I did NOT argue that it was wrong to be so.
I was attacking their blaming of God. THAT I cannot accept.
On a personal level, I maintain that you are who you are born as. Anything else is purely psychological, otherwise we would be forgiving psychotic murderers as well.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 07.28.2011, 08:39 PM |
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fenkashi
Dibs on Supreme Overlord
Registration Date: 08.12.07
Location: Canada
Posts: 5732 |
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Would they blame god if others didn't use god to make transgender people feel unacceptable?
Really... if people just accepted transgender people for who they are, there would be no need for any blame. It would be another routine process.
I'm with Husky on this one. Live and let live.
quote:
On a personal level, I maintain that you are who you are born as. Anything else is purely psychological, otherwise we would be forgiving psychotic murderers as well.
What do murderers have to do with this? And did you just imply that there is a need to forgive transgender people?
I'm not up to date on what the scientific world makes of transgender people... but so what if it is all psychological? So are a lot of things in life. Doesn't negate their existence. Doesn't mean we can or should be expected to disregard them.
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| 07.28.2011, 11:54 PM |
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Orphic Okapi
Baron
Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
Besides, sex is just a way for a species to reproduce. Man and man, woman and woman, not very productive to the species.
Nonreproductive sex happens all the time in nature, including plenty of homosexual activity. 9 out of 10 sexual encounters between giraffes are between two males.
Sex in humans has even less to do with reproduction than in any other animal species. This is scientifically established. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that sex in humans is first and foremost a social activity, and only secondarily a means of reproduction, and that we succeeded as a species for precisely that reason. The animal species humans are most closely related to is the bonobo, a species renowned for being totally bisexual. 60% of all sexual contact in the species is between two females.
So no, sex is not really about reproduction - at least not always in animals, and almost never in humans.
The point I was trying to make earlier about intersex people was simply this: if God purposefully creates people who are neither male nor female (which we must accept as true if we accept that he is infallible), then clearly he is not as rigid about the male-female gender dichotomy as we have been led to believe.
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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 07.29.2011, 11:13 AM.
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| 07.29.2011, 02:35 AM |
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Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
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In addition to Orphic Okapi's very good points, reproduction is also not the goal of anything, especially not humans. It is a method of propagating our genes, but it's nobody's imperative. Thanks to natural selection we're well-equipped to propagate our genes, but just because we easily can doesn't mean that we should or we have to. And sexual reproduction is not even the only method; babysitting your younger siblings works too.
Roarkiller, I don't like to be pedantic, but you did say "I'm not cool with transgender" and "I, personally, don't approve of it", referring to people being gay, lesbian, or transgender. If I were a transgendered person reading this, I would find it hard to interpret in any other way than an attack on me and my life choices, not just an attack on my pinning the blame on God.
As well, although God as a being incapable of making mistakes might be your definition, that doesn't mean that it's everybody's. When other people invoke God, you have to accept that they may have a different religious view. Many people I know use "god" as a casual synonym for chance or fate. Your chromosomes, like your parents, are not something you have control over. So depending on your philosophy, it might be perfectly reasonable to attribute such things to fate, or God. Either way, the next time you meet a transgendered person 'blaming god' for their circumstances, try to be more interested in how they've grown and worked to overcome what they perceive to be misfortune.
Maybe it is pathetic to be consumed and defeated by the situation of your birth. But every person who is transgendered has categorically not been defeated. If they were, they would still be the same gender as they were when they were born, and moping around about it.
As for your last point - "you are who you are born as" - I am not a baby, right? ^^
People grow and change, and exercise control over their bodies. If you want more muscles you go to the gym. If you want less fat, you go on a diet. If you want short hair you go to the barber's. It doesn't change who you are on the inside, and that's fine. Transgendered people aren't trying to change who they are on the inside, they're just trying to tweak the outside to match.
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Post last edited by Mush on 07.29.2011, 03:34 AM.
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| 07.29.2011, 03:31 AM |
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arren18
Administrator
Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
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Until now, I haven't been posting in here because I've been unsure on how to put my thoughts into words, and because other people have said things in much better ways than I could. But I think now I have enough to say that I can avoid just posting "I agree with Mushka" again. 
Anyway, Roar, I think your basing your argument on presuppositions. To begin with, you presuppose that there is a God, and that by definition God cannot make mistakes. As Mushka mentioned, there are many people - even other religious people - who do not define "god" in that way. And of course, consider all the people who don't believe in God at all. They will all have varying ideas of why people are born into a situation, psychological or otherwise, that makes them unhappy, and how to deal with that unhappiness. Would you disapprove of these people for not sharing your religious beliefs? Because your focus on God in this argument implies that that is the case. You said in your first post that you're discussing not religion but logical philosophy, but this central point is based on your religious views.
Even if we agree on your definition of God, there are points that you've left out. I'd imagine that your idea of God is not as a physical being, in which case it may be unimportant to God whether a person is male or female or anything else. If God creates the person, does it matter what body they choose to inhabit?
You also keep reminding us that you're not attacking transgender people themselves, but how they blame God for their situation, based on the assumption that those you've encountered are indicative of all transgender people. Nobody else had mentioned blaming God until you did, and from that point onwards you've seemed to take it for granted that these people blame God, because of a generalisation.
And then you also seem to assume that only reproduction is productive to the human species. If humans existed only to reproduce, we wouldn't be a very successful species. You make it sound like humans are like bacteria or something, just wanting to make more of themselves. There's also the fact that in the world of today, where we have problems like overpopulation, overconsumption and millions of orphaned children, it might be argued that reproduction is actually detrimental to the survival of the species.
I hope that was readable. I might have rambled a bit.
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| 07.29.2011, 09:40 AM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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"I'm not cool with transgenders" is an opinion, devoid of scientific factual basis. Which means I'm not going to argue for or against it, because it is, in the end, an opinion. If you feel that this is an offensive attack, well, that is your opinion, and I won't argue with that either.
My statement on God, once again I repeat, came from the other party. Please acknowledge this before firing bullets into my argument.
"God is a term for the omnipotent" is a logical argument, based on general agreement on the meaning of the term. Not my personal definition nor my religion.
Argument on psychotic murderers follow this thought logic: if, assuming that homosexuals are, as argued, born the way they are, and should be accepted, then psychos should never be hated or shunned, because they were "born" with the desire for destruction, and should be accepted into society. Same as kleptomaniacs. So why don't we?
On the topic of sex, you people are missing the point. EVERY species who have sex do it, from a biological and darwinian arguments, to reproduce, REGARDLESS of the intentions. The only other way to reproduce naturally is by splitting, and we're not germs. We are hardwired to WANT sex for that sole reason, again, REGARDLESS of why we actually do it.
Lastly, I'm starting to think that you people believe that I dislike, or even hate, gays and lesbos and transgenders. 'Scuse me, but I have two gay and at least three lesbian friends, and believe it or not, there was one highly respected religious teacher in history who was androgynous.
Disapprove does not equal dislike, nor hate. Get this straight.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 07.30.2011, 01:17 AM |
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fenkashi
Dibs on Supreme Overlord
Registration Date: 08.12.07
Location: Canada
Posts: 5732 |
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Well, I went and read the whole thread and Roar... I have an issue with what you're saying. Basically, what ARE you saying? You say that you 'disapprove of' but do not 'dislike' LGBT individuals. Reminds of me of the saying 'hate the sin, not the sinner' ... either way negative feelings are involved and whether you intend it or not, the homosexual or transgendered person will likely be offended or feel attacked as you are saying you disapprove of a part of that person's identity. I don't know how one would not be offended by that.
That being said, I did not think you hated any of these people. I just think your stance on this issue is unreasonable. Just trying to understand why you feel the way you do.
Anyway, what I mean when I ask you what you are saying is...quote:
You are who you are born as, there's no such thing as god making a mistake.
You clarified that the latter part of that sentence is something you have found in documentaries and from actually talking to transgendered people. So then it seems like you disapprove of transgendered people blaming god for their situation, rather than transgendered people in general. If that is the case, you should have explained in your first post; there is a huge difference between "I am not cool with transgenders" and "I am not cool with transgenders blaming god for the way they are".
Ahh, but then you say this...
quote:
Don't get me wrong though, if you want to be gay or lesbian or transgender, go for it; it's your life, your decision. I'm just saying that I, personally, don't approve of it, and blaming other people (or God) for who you are or what happens to you is just downright pathetic.
First of all... the whole "it's [...] your decision" thing? Yeah. Not even going to touch that beyond saying that in my opinion it really is not. People don't decide that they have the wrong body. It's how they feel. The only decision they make is whether to do anything about how they feel.
Back on point, now it seems like you generally disapprove of transgender people (btw, why are you grouping homosexuals and transgendered people? 2 completely different issues...the only similarity is the stigma these groups face) instead of the explanation some of them have for their existence. And that begs the question WHY do you disapprove of transgender people? You say it's an opinion, which I can respect but what is your basis for this opinion? I thought that explaining your opinions was the whole point of having discussions...and you haven't explained it. Or if you did, I missed it (I apologize and please point it out to me!).
... And if you disapprove solely because transgendered people blame god... well, that's being a little unfair. You should not judge an entire group of people based on a report/documentary or even 50 reports/documentaries.
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On misfortune...I think people are perfectly in their right to blame, resent or feel angry with god for their misfortunes as the concept of god can be a very personalized one. God is an idea or belief and I think everyone should be entitled to make what they will of their ideas and beliefs.
You are perfectly in your right to think it wrong to blame god for petty or grievous misfortunes.
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I find the introduction of sex to this discussion pretty random but... actually, I'd say people understood your point quite well. Yes, biologically speaking, the purpose of sex is reproduction. And then people made perfectly valid comments...there are other aspects to sex. And regardless of its intended function, there are also other functions (like the social ones) that have developed and taken the front seat.
The point is that human beings don't strive for Darwinian fitness at this point in time...they have other goals in mind. And in that light, to make any comment about homosexuals based on the fact that they aren't 'productive human beings in the Darwinian sense' is just silly.
Also, there is more to being homosexual than homosexual sex.
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quote:
Argument on psychotic murderers follow this thought logic: if, assuming that homosexuals are, as argued, born the way they are, and should be accepted, then psychos should never be hated or shunned, because they were "born" with the desire for destruction, and should be accepted into society. Same as kleptomaniacs. So why don't we?
Yes, I figured that's what you meant. And my question stands.
I can't believe you're comparing murderers to homosexuals or transgendered people. The reason murderers are not accepted into society is because of morals and because of the harm they inflict on others (I think Mushka said something about this earlier).
Do you think homosexuals or transgendered people are immoral? Because otherwise I do not understand that logic.
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Erm yeah. Sorry it's a little ridiculous in length. My main point is a question and it's underlined. I believe that is what Mushka was trying to get you to expand on with her point about the logic behind your argument?
I think you should establish that before we get pulled into the semantics of it all.
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| 07.30.2011, 05:25 AM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
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Before I reiterate my points for the third time, allow me to give some examples nearer to heart.
As most of you guys know, I am a muslim first and foremost. Now, according to Islamic law, a muslim woman, upon reaching puberty, must cover their body save their hands and face (as in it is a sin, literally to not do so). The degree of coverage depends on which school of thought you study from, but that's irrelevant for this example.
In my society, and many others in fact, the girls seldom cover up. In fact, even my own sister nor most of my cousins do. Being a staunch muslim, obviously I disapprove of this.
So according to your argument, I should also dislike/hate my own family members? Instead of just disapproving their not covering up?
I have a few friends from my workplace who blatantly, and quite oftenly, practice dishonesty when it comes to doing business. The sales people are also sometimes to to try and sell slightly defective goods, or goods we know don't work as stated, etc etc. They tell me it's common business practice, or else nothing ever gets sold. Since it goes against my principle of selling lies, I disapprove of such business ethics.
So according to your argument, I should dislike/hate my colleagues and everyone in the sales sector? Instead of only disapproving of such practices?
Think about it. Now here goes my third iteration of explanations.
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Well, I went and read the whole thread and Roar... I have an issue with what you're saying. Basically, what ARE you saying? You say that you 'disapprove of' but do not 'dislike' LGBT individuals. Reminds of me of the saying 'hate the sin, not the sinner' ... either way negative feelings are involved and whether you intend it or not, the homosexual or transgendered person will likely be offended or feel attacked as you are saying you disapprove of a part of that person's identity. I don't know how one would not be offended by that.
See my above examples. Why do you people insist that I MUST dislike in order to disapprove? Why must the two go together? "Hate the sin" was exactly my point, yet nobody seems to agree on it. And again, if you feel offended by it, then so be it. I don't control your feelings or whatever you want to assume from my argument.
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
That being said, I did not think you hated any of these people. I just think your stance on this issue is unreasonable. Just trying to understand why you feel the way you do.
Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Anyway, what I mean when I ask you what you are saying is...quote:
You are who you are born as, there's no such thing as god making a mistake.
You clarified that the latter part of that sentence is something you have found in documentaries and from actually talking to transgendered people. So then it seems like you disapprove of transgendered people blaming god for their situation, rather than transgendered people in general. If that is the case, you should have explained in your first post; there is a huge difference between "I am not cool with transgenders" and "I am not cool with transgenders blaming god for the way they are".
I meant both. The people and the blaming act itself. Once again, I stress the lack of hate on my part.
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
First of all... the whole "it's [...] your decision" thing? Yeah. Not even going to touch that beyond saying that in my opinion it really is not. People don't decide that they have the wrong body. It's how they feel. The only decision they make is whether to do anything about how they feel.
How they "feel" is not concrete. Again, from both a scientific and religious point of view, there's no such thing as being born in a wrong body. What, you can't be born gay? Or lesbian? Changing your sex is the EXACT ACT of rejecting both gays and lesbians. You can't accept that you are so, and thus it must be a "mistake". Excuse my language, but bull****.
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Back on point, now it seems like you generally disapprove of transgender people (btw, why are you grouping homosexuals and transgendered people? 2 completely different issues...the only similarity is the stigma these groups face) instead of the explanation some of them have for their existence.
First point first. I didn't. The argument was, and still is, about transgenders. Nothing to do with the G's and L's.
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
And that begs the question WHY do you disapprove of transgender people? You say it's an opinion, which I can respect but what is your basis for this opinion? I thought that explaining your opinions was the whole point of having discussions...and you haven't explained it. Or if you did, I missed it (I apologize and please point it out to me!).
No, you didn't miss it. The reason for my opinion is purely religious, and that holds no water in a debate. Hence I see no point in putting it forth, unless I was debating with a group of muslims.
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
... And if you disapprove solely because transgendered people blame god... well, that's being a little unfair. You should not judge an entire group of people based on a report/documentary or even 50 reports/documentaries.
Eh... point cleared earlier, I think, else please correct me.
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi On misfortune...I think people are perfectly in their right to blame, resent or feel angry with god for their misfortunes as the concept of god can be a very personalized one. God is an idea or belief and I think everyone should be entitled to make what they will of their ideas and beliefs.
You are perfectly in your right to think it wrong to blame god for petty or grievous misfortunes.
It is never right to blame God, or even another human, for something that they may not even be guilty of.
EVER.
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
I find the introduction of sex to this discussion pretty random but... actually, I'd say people understood your point quite well. Yes, biologically speaking, the purpose of sex is reproduction. And then people made perfectly valid comments...there are other aspects to sex. And regardless of its intended function, there are also other functions (like the social ones) that have developed and taken the front seat.
The point is that human beings don't strive for Darwinian fitness at this point in time...they have other goals in mind. And in that light, to make any comment about homosexuals based on the fact that they aren't 'productive human beings in the Darwinian sense' is just silly.
Also, there is more to being homosexual than homosexual sex.
Hardly random. Whatever your direction, you want someone to love, and being with someone you love with ultimately involve a sexual relation of some sort, barring the odd fear.
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
I can't believe you're comparing murderers to homosexuals or transgendered people. The reason murderers are not accepted into society is because of morals and because of the harm they inflict on others (I think Mushka said something about this earlier).
Do you think homosexuals or transgendered people are immoral? Because otherwise I do not understand that logic.
Any idea how many parents are broken from seeing their son/daughter go the other way? Yeah they can eventually adapt, but initially? How about the rest of the family? How about other not-so-conservative parents who fear for their children? Thought of them?
Imagine your self as a parent needing to explain this to your son or daughter. Would you honestly tell them that it's okay to love someone of the same gender? Honestly?
But that's besides the point. According to the counter argument, the murderers and kleptomaniacs should also be accepted, because it isn't their fault. I repeat, NOT THEIR FAULT. So why the rejection? Why the hate? What, no sympathy to the mentally ill? Why such hypocritical behaviour?
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Erm yeah. Sorry it's a little ridiculous in length. My main point is a question and it's underlined. I believe that is what Mushka was trying to get you to expand on with her point about the logic behind your argument?
Long story short, because it is my opinion. And I am entitled to that. Terse reply, I know and I apologize, but that's the way it is.
Fact is, if I don't see a reasonable logic in a statement or argument, then it's not a point worth considering IMO. And since an opinion is devoid of logic at initial value, I see no point in including them in an argument, unless there is a general consensus, in which case I will state so.
EDIT: An interesting parallel argument, thanks to arren's post. Transgenders are unhappy with who they are, and so, even with the blatant stigma that will be placed on them, they do a sex change, and claim that they are in no need of pschological help. Why, then, are suicidal people deemed to need help when it is their choice and their life? Because they are harming themselves? On what argument are we basing on that they are in any harm aside from death, which is their intended goal anyway?
Interesting argument?
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I am who I am.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 07.30.2011, 07:52 AM |
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hopexx5
Totoro
Registration Date: 01.17.11
Location: UK
Posts: 698 |
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I think this has really gone off subject, In my original poll i don't recall asking anyone to talk about transgender, i was more opting towards cross-dressers and feminine guys.
But i will let the transgender argument die out then please can we get back on subject?
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| 07.30.2011, 10:10 AM |
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Kazegami
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 08.19.07
Location: a world of pure imagination
Posts: 7025 |
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I think we're within our rights to have a relevant debate...
quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
I can't believe you're comparing murderers to homosexuals or transgendered people. The reason murderers are not accepted into society is because of morals and because of the harm they inflict on others (I think Mushka said something about this earlier).
Do you think homosexuals or transgendered people are immoral? Because otherwise I do not understand that logic.
Any idea how many parents are broken from seeing their son/daughter go the other way? Yeah they can eventually adapt, but initially? How about the rest of the family? How about other not-so-conservative parents who fear for their children? Thought of them?
Imagine your self as a parent needing to explain this to your son or daughter. Would you honestly tell them that it's okay to love someone of the same gender? Honestly?
But that's besides the point. According to the counter argument, the murderers and kleptomaniacs should also be accepted, because it isn't their fault. I repeat, NOT THEIR FAULT. So why the rejection? Why the hate? What, no sympathy to the mentally ill? Why such hypocritical behaviour?
Firstly, I for one would tell me child that it's perfectly fine to love someone of the same gender. While things are still difficult at times, society's reached the point where this is both acceptable and normal to most people.
And the point about the murderers and kleptomaniacs is that they do real, tangible harm. Homosexuals do not injure or kill people because of how they are. They're no more or less harmful than heterosexuals, who can cause their family just as much grief by making the 'wrong' choices. It's only a matter of time before it stops being a disaster to some families to have a homosexual in the family, but it will never be acceptable to have an axe murderer.
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| 07.30.2011, 01:18 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12801 |
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OK, not to throw a pail of water on the debate, which this has become, I must agree with hopexx5...
hopexx5 opening quote:
"Your thoughts on Boys who like being girlish.
OK a bit of an odd poll but still, your thoughts on this question. (you don't have to vote if the subject doesn't appeal to you)
And yes i am also referring to boys who like the clothes... i wont go further into that sentence to safe hassle.
But not only that subject... try not to rant on about it. "
The answers seem to have gotten way off track, IMO
The original question was your thoughts on BOYS who like being GIRLISH... and WHO LIKE GIRLS CLOTHES.
I believe that this was al that was asked and yet now we are having a huge debate on gays, lesbians and transexuals and the pros and cons of these lifestyles and, somehow, murders and religion has gotten involed. I can see where religion may play a part in a persons opinion on this topic but nothing more.
Again, IMHO, I think that some statements have been mis-interpeted or misunderstood and people have taken an offense. I am sure that no offense was ever meant and we need to back up and read the original topic lines.
If you feel strongly about this, maybe a separate topic thread would be in order. I am not a Moderator and leave these things to be decided by them.
If I am wrong in my beliefs in this matter, then I apologize in advance.
Love to all, Husky
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| 07.30.2011, 01:42 PM |
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Nausicaa_Cat
Baron
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location:
Posts: 3198 |
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Hope and Husky, personally I think this debate has a lot more intrinsic value than everyone simply stating their personal views on whether girly guys are okay. In fact I think we all did that at the beginning of the topic anyway? It's natural for topics to evolve, I don't think it's necessary to become overly-concerned with them being allocated to a properly labelled thread. If anything I think it does everybody good to get a little heated every now and then - it's interesting to hear others viewpoints particularly when they differ so strongly from our own. We've had explosive debates in the past but there has never been any continuing ill will or bad blood because of them so I don't see why that would happen now.
I wasn't sure I could contribute anything else worth contributing to this argument, my viewpoint being represented brilliantly by Mushka and Fen but I don't feel I can remain silent on this subject anymore. May I just say now Roar that obviously I have the utmost respect for you and your right to your own personal opinion, and I hope it won't offend you if I challenge you on some points.
quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
First of all... the whole "it's [...] your decision" thing? Yeah. Not even going to touch that beyond saying that in my opinion it really is not. People don't decide that they have the wrong body. It's how they feel. The only decision they make is whether to do anything about how they feel.
How they "feel" is not concrete. Again, from both a scientific and religious point of view, there's no such thing as being born in a wrong body. What, you can't be born gay? Or lesbian? Changing your sex is the EXACT ACT of rejecting both gays and lesbians. You can't accept that you are so, and thus it must be a "mistake". Excuse my language, but bull****.
How a person 'feels' is arguably one of the most concrete things in existence. The senses, sight, sound, taste and so on - all of these are easily decieved or mistaken. Our perception of the outside world is far more shakey than our knowledge of ourselves, that is just logical. Were I to become deaf, blind, dumb and lose all nerve sensations I would be left with only my own thoughts and my emotions. If our feelings and our perception of ourselves aren't hugely important than I don't see what is. Of course some feelings do change and vary over the years but I think one that is (and must have been) as constant and powerful as a complete revolt against one's sexual identity is hardly likely to waver.
I also strongly object to the idea that people who are transgender are changing genders based purely on matters of sexual attraction to the opposite sex. A person who is transgender innately feels that they are at dischord with their body - being male or female isn't merely a case of sexual organs is it? Our gender is reflected in the way we are both treated and percieved by society and influences day in day out consequential and inconsequential details such as what we wear. Your argument that transgender people all change gender simply due to a matter of sexual attraction to their own gender than you, and I don't mean this rudely of course Roar, but are speaking from a position of ignorance I'm afraid. Even a child could tell you that there is more to being a boy or girl than what you have in your pants and whose pants you want to get in.
Don't mistake me - what I'm saying is though the organs are important, obviously so or this whole transgender thing is irrelevant, but a big part of it is more what they represent.
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Originally posted by fenkashi On misfortune...I think people are perfectly in their right to blame, resent or feel angry with god for their misfortunes as the concept of god can be a very personalized one. God is an idea or belief and I think everyone should be entitled to make what they will of their ideas and beliefs.
You are perfectly in your right to think it wrong to blame god for petty or grievous misfortunes.
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It is never right to blame God, or even another human, for something that they may not even be guilty of.
EVER.
Once again to reiterate Fenk's post - for many people God is far more personalized, somebody who they talk to (though obviously he doesn't reply, at least in no straightforward manner) and somebody who they percieve as a close identity who they have a unique and important connection with. If that person were to then lose all their family in a natural disaster such as an earthquake - something that in no way relates to human action - and in their perception of religion believe that God both created and watches over the world than surely it's logical they would attach some blame to God? If to them God was omnipotent and omniscient, somebody who they had relied on in a personal way throughout their life, than having their fath shaken by some disastrous misfortune isn't immoral or impossible to understand. For them it may even be right - in my opinion God is a concept completely unique to the indivdual and so if they feel justified to attribute some loss to an act or lack of an act of their God then that's right.
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Originally posted by fenkashi
I can't believe you're comparing murderers to homosexuals or transgendered people. The reason murderers are not accepted into society is because of morals and because of the harm they inflict on others (I think Mushka said something about this earlier).
Do you think homosexuals or transgendered people are immoral? Because otherwise I do not understand that logic.
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Any idea how many parents are broken from seeing their son/daughter go the other way? Yeah they can eventually adapt, but initially? How about the rest of the family? How about other not-so-conservative parents who fear for their children? Thought of them?
Imagine your self as a parent needing to explain this to your son or daughter. Would you honestly tell them that it's okay to love someone of the same gender? Honestly?
But that's besides the point. According to the counter argument, the murderers and kleptomaniacs should also be accepted, because it isn't their fault. I repeat, NOT THEIR FAULT. So why the rejection? Why the hate? What, no sympathy to the mentally ill? Why such hypocritical behaviour?
I genuinely find it hard to even concieve of your argument here. I know it's your opinion and based on personal religious views but I honestly feel offended on behalf of homosexual friends and accquaintances.
If a parent has difficulty with their child's sexuality than that is not and never is the fault of the child. People do not choose to be homosexual if years of repression, of people growing up in varying backgrounds and in different ways has shown anything it is that some of us are simply attracted to our own gender. This doesn't infringe on anybody elses right to practice their sexuality and doesn't harm anyone. You are arguing it harms the parent - if the parent suffers from homophobia that is their psychological issue, if anybody is suffering from a disturbed mindset it is the parent not the child. Homosexuality is as old as the human race and is seen frequently throughout the natural world, as I think has previously been mentioned many animals practice homosexuality - if anything homosexuality is natural to the world, homophobia however is only featured in one race and that is ours. If a parent is homophobic than they owe it to the child who they are meant to love and care for to deal with their own mental problems opposed to making that child feel like they have done something wrong.
I can say with my whole heart that I would be perfectly satisfied if every single one of my future children turned out to be homosexual. A person's identity is so much more than who they are attracted to, it is both ignorant and small minded to judge a person based on that small section of what makes up who they are. When I have a child I will make sure that from the youngest age possible I will make it clear in their minds that both heterosexuality and homosexuality are equally acceptable and moral. I don't wish to raise prejudiced or bigoted children.
Once again I am going to echo the shock others felt in you comparing homosexuality or wishing to be transgender to kleptomaniacs and murderers. People have already explained how this is a completely inadequate and fairly offensive analogy but I will try once again:
Kleptomaniacs and murderers inflict harm on those around them and are both a danger and destructive force in society. As such they are treated with little sympathy because people find it hard to sympathise with those who hurt others and they need to be sequestered from society on this basis.
Homosexuals and transgender individuals do not harm those around them in a physical or mental manner. You may respond that they are harmful to those who are offended by this life choice and their hurt relations/friends but as I have previously said - those people are offended due to their own prejudiced beliefs and homosexual and transgender people can not be held responsible or to blame for this backlash.
Also can I just add that most murderers do very much have a choice - no comparison can be made between a young fourteen year old boy realising he is sexually attracted to his own gender and a twenty seven year old female who decides to kill her cheating husband in an act of jealousy and revenge. I realise they are very specific examples but I really just want to make clear the point that people choosing to safely practice their own sexuality with consenting others is a completely different thing to somebody stealing from others or killing them. That these seem to equate to each other in your mind purely baffles me. One is a danger to society, one is not - it's very simple.
I realise that what I will say next could easily twist the topic once again off into a seperate angle so I completely accept that others may disagree and I don't feel it even needs to be responded to - but you point out the hypocrisy of people choosing to be sympathetic to homosexuals (who what, you believe are mentally ill?) but not to murderers (who you believe are all mentally ill). All religious faiths that I have knowledge of preach the principles of forgiveness, of understanding and above all compassion to our fellow man. So what - you choose who to be compassionate and understanding towards? These foundations of religion must and should be far more important than any particular doctrines. If you belong to a religion which advocates compassion or understanding then you are a hypocrite for not treating all individuals in this way. If you can pick and choose who is worthy of any of these pillars of religion then personally I lose all respect for your so called faith. I don't believe in God, I don't need to belong to a religion to know that the good things in life - love of those around us - are what's important. Homophobia is akin to racism, and if a religion promotes homophobia than in my mind it is on no higher level than the Ku Klux Klan. I realise that is a very strong and possibly controversial viewpoint but that's genuinely how I feel.
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| 07.30.2011, 02:38 PM |
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hopexx5
Totoro
Registration Date: 01.17.11
Location: UK
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I understand your points on continuing the debate, its just im the sort of person who hates seeing people get hurt by others comments on believes etc, but by all means if you really want to continue the debate.
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| 07.30.2011, 03:09 PM |
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arren18
Administrator
Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 10669 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
In my society, and many others in fact, the girls seldom cover up. In fact, even my own sister nor most of my cousins do. Being a staunch muslim, obviously I disapprove of this.
So according to your argument, I should also dislike/hate my own family members? Instead of just disapproving their not covering up?
I don't think anybody here is suggesting that you're hating anybody. And I can understand disapproving of some things, like the type of things you mentioned. I disapprove of smokers, racists and people who vote for the Conservatives, but what's different about these things and those that you mentioned, from transgender people and homosexuals, is that what I've listed are choices. People do not wake up one morning and decide that from that day onward they will be uncomfortable about their biological sex or desire relationships with their own sex.
Others in this thread have already mentioned that it's wrong to make the comparison to kleptomaniacs and psychologically disturbed murderers because those people cause direct harm to fellow human beings. And I don't disagree that these people need help. I think that more should be done to rehabilitate people whose mental state causes them to do harm to others, rather than just to punish them. However, it is still unreasonable to make the comparison you've made.
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No, you didn't miss it. The reason for my opinion is purely religious, and that holds no water in a debate. Hence I see no point in putting it forth, unless I was debating with a group of muslims.
But this thread is for "your thoughts". It wasn't a debate until you made it one; we were only discussing our personal opinions. But once you started trying to justify your statements with comments about science and philosophy, it left you open to responses, and turned this into a bit of an argument.
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Any idea how many parents are broken from seeing their son/daughter go the other way? Yeah they can eventually adapt, but initially? How about the rest of the family? How about other not-so-conservative parents who fear for their children? Thought of them?
Imagine your self as a parent needing to explain this to your son or daughter. Would you honestly tell them that it's okay to love someone of the same gender? Honestly?
Yes.
I think parents that truly support their children should not be upset to discover things about their children that are not necessarily the norm in society. If they don't have ridiculous prejudices in the first place then they wouldn't. If they were upset, or angry, then it would be the parent who is in the wrong, not the child for being who they are. I'm sorry that it seems unlikely to you that any parent would be okay with their children turning out to be gay, etc.
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An interesting parallel argument, thanks to arren's post. Transgenders are unhappy with who they are, and so, even with the blatant stigma that will be placed on them, they do a sex change, and claim that they are in no need of pschological help. Why, then, are suicidal people deemed to need help when it is their choice and their life? Because they are harming themselves? On what argument are we basing on that they are in any harm aside from death, which is their intended goal anyway?
Interesting argument?
Well, people planning suicide aren't seeking to change their life for the better; they intend to end it. Worried friends and family obviously want them to reconsider how they might improve their life, and if they're planning suicide, then improving their life is obviously something they can't do without help.
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| 07.30.2011, 03:14 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12801 |
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| 07.30.2011, 11:58 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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Before continuing, to the few people who are uncomfortable about this whole "discussion" (I don't like the word debate, really).
@husky: The problem, my good friend, is that the moderator is at fault here  So sorry, lol.
@hope: Regarding your original question, I's say virtually everyone has no issues on feminine guys. So, yeah, that part has ended. Secondly, no one is getting hurt in this thread really, me and Muhka (plus all supporting her, because I'm so lonely) have been at loggerheads on this topic for what, three threads I think? So it's old history, no need to panic.
In fact, feel free to join in, the more input the better. It's good to have a different opinion or argument, it expands your thinking, or allows you to understand why the other party thinks in such a way, if not for anything else.
A big reason for the difference in opinion could be because of our background; I'm the only one living in Asia, and that speaks for itself.
So! To the main points.
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On psychos and related people. "As such they are treated with little sympathy", as NC said, is exactly the kind of hypocritical treatment I was referring to. These people, by default CANNOT repress the urge to commit such acts. Kleptomaniacs, for example, are commonly known to suffer from heavy depresion and suicidals BECAUSE of their inability to stop themselves.
(By the way, I don't recall any input on religious or personal beliefs here?)
And yet we should show little sympathy towards them? They are the very people who need help the most BECAUSE they are a danger to others, yet aren't getting much help because of the very nature of their mental disability. Instead we have campaigns on freedom of sex and what not, when the real sufferers cotinue suffering.
In a parallel sense, it's like championing animal rights in Africa where millions of starving people live. It's like as though these animals are more significant than human lives. Weird priority, if you ask me.
FYI I never said that transgenders and psychos are in the same boat. I meant that if a state of mind of one group should be forgiven, all should be forgiven equally. But this isn't the case, and I was questioning the logic behind this. It's called a parallel argument for a reason: similar, not the same. Big difference.
And no, I did NOT say they were mentally ill. I was referring to an initial argument that they were born to be in such a way, and so should be forgiven for having a mindset in such a way. Emphasis on "state of mind", not "mental illness", even if both are argued to be inborn.
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But this thread is for "your thoughts". It wasn't a debate until you made it one; we were only discussing our personal opinions. But once you started trying to justify your statements with comments about science and philosophy, it left you open to responses, and turned this into a bit of an argument.
It takes two hands to clap. "My personal opinion" was debated upon, and so I counter-argued with reasons on why I believe so, excluding as much personal feelings as possible because of reason I stated in my reply to fenkashi.
Thanks for replying to the parallel argument, I'll talk about that at the end of this.
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I also strongly object to the idea that people who are transgender are changing genders based purely on matters of sexual attraction to the opposite sex.
Not purely, no. That goes beyond personal preference, and even I have a hard time believing that. But a considerable part is involved.
You can say that this part here is opiniated. Personally, I will never approve of anyone who goes under the knife just because they are unhappy with themselves. Sex change, to me, is very similar to the lines of boob jobs and botox and whatever is the trend now. Very superficial and shallow. (I repeat, personal opinion, in case anyone is thinking of rebutting this point.)
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For them it may even be right - in my opinion God is a concept completely unique to the indivdual and so if they feel justified to attribute some loss to an act or lack of an act of their God then that's right.
That's besides the point. I accept that God is as individual as the person who believes it.
But my stand remains. You DO NOT blame someone who MAY NOT be guilty of anything in the first place. In the first place, why the need to blame anyone at all? Because your loved one died? Insensitive as it may sound, EVERYONE will die eventually, and that's a fact. Be it in an accident or old age, death is natural.
So similarly, just because you BELIEVE that you were born in the wrong body, you can blame anyone however you like? How about looking in the mirror for a change? Like asking yourself "why am I differerent?", instead of "who should I blame?"
They are two totally different questions with totally different answers.
A similar example: A woman haslow self-esteem because she feels that her breasts are too small. She blames god for her inadequate size, and proceeds to get implants, hence boosting her confidence.
Doesn't sound too wrong, right? Bzzzt.
Here we have to ask ourselves: why, in the first place, does she have low self-esteem, and why does she feel the need for bigger breasts? In the scenario, the first argument that comes to mind is social pressure. Size is everything, and in believing so, either because she was made fun of or because of media's portrayal of beauty, she suffers from low confidence.
Now lets switch to our initial argument.
Why, in the first place, does the transgender feel uncomfortable with his/her body? This has nothing to do with birth; as I said, you are who you are. There are no physical defects that prevent you from performing daily activities, or any activities for that matter. There are no mental defects that prevent such occurrences either.
In fact, I dare say that, if brought up in a secluded life, he/she would have been a gay/lesbian, if it is to be believed that the mindset was inborn.
Again, I ask this question: what in the world has led them to believe, in the first place, that their body is wrong?
Boys and girls have no consciousness of their differences until they actually learn of it; girls have long hair, boys don't (yet another stereotype), boys have penises, girl don't, women grow breasts, men grow muscles. If you have doubts over this, go to a preschool or kindergarten and ask them if they know the difference between boys and girls.
Looking from a child's psyche, the similarities to me are obvious: the uncomfortable feeling transgenders get stems from the their environment. In other words, it is the society that makes them feel uncomfortable. There was nothing wrong with them in the first place. Following this thought, I therefore conclude that you cannot be born into the wrong body in the first place; it is the person him/herself who believed so.
Final argument:
quote:
I realise that what I will say next could easily twist the topic once again off into a seperate angle so I completely accept that others may disagree and I don't feel it even needs to be responded to - but you point out the hypocrisy of people choosing to be sympathetic to homosexuals (who what, you believe are mentally ill?) but not to murderers (who you believe are all mentally ill). All religious faiths that I have knowledge of preach the principles of forgiveness, of understanding and above all compassion to our fellow man. So what - you choose who to be compassionate and understanding towards? These foundations of religion must and should be far more important than any particular doctrines. If you belong to a religion which advocates compassion or understanding then you are a hypocrite for not treating all individuals in this way. If you can pick and choose who is worthy of any of these pillars of religion then personally I lose all respect for your so called faith. I don't believe in God, I don't need to belong to a religion to know that the good things in life - love of those around us - are what's important. Homophobia is akin to racism, and if a religion promotes homophobia than in my mind it is on no higher level than the Ku Klux Klan. I realise that is a very strong and possibly controversial viewpoint but that's genuinely how I feel.
This one, unfortunately, requires the discussion of religion, and I'm not sure if I should go into that. We'll wait for a say from the others before we continue this?
So for closing, my response to arren.
quote:
Well, people planning suicide aren't seeking to change their life for the better; they intend to end it. Worried friends and family obviously want them to reconsider how they might improve their life, and if they're planning suicide, then improving their life is obviously something they can't do without help.
The argument is that suicide is, in the end, the choice of the individual. Family and friends aside, these people have made the decision to end their lives, and barring mental illness, have full consciousness of their actions.
So why are we preventing them their right to this choice? It seems odd that we allow body mutilation and even see it as a freedom of expression, but somehow revolt at the idea of someone else's life ending willingly. Just a homosexual sex isn't all there is about homosexuals, sometimes people commit suicide not because their own life is miserable, but because they are tired of living itself, or hate their surroundings, not their situation. There are cases of suicidals who profess that they refuse to live in a world full of hate and betrayal, even though it did not concern themselves.
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I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 07.31.2011, 12:40 AM |
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Calforsale
Totoro
Registration Date: 01.19.10
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 866 |
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quote:
Originally posted by husky51
hahahaha, I love you all and I will say one thing more.
Boy, the activity level in the Tavern sure increased in the last couple of days... 
Hehe maybe we need more debates.
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| 07.31.2011, 01:32 AM |
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hopexx5
Totoro
Registration Date: 01.17.11
Location: UK
Posts: 698 |
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From a british boy's point of view, I think transgender are well within there means to do what they wish except the obvious the latter of which murder etc.
I don't have any religious believes except a god in a game, guthix the god of balance, his motive is balance and if that means violence so be it.
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| 07.31.2011, 07:49 AM |
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