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Orphic Okapi
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How long have you been studying Japanese Arren? I've only been at it since I got to Japan like six months ago, so my grasp on the language is still very basic, but being able to interact with Japanese speakers on a daily basis is speeding up the learning process, I think. I am having a lot of fun with it.

One comment about the Japanese F. It exists! And not just in loan words, either. After all, Mt. Fuji is a thing. The only f-sound in native Japanese words, though, is "fu," which is why certain loan words drop the f-sound, like kohii.

The Japanese F is pronounced a little differently from the English F though. You don't really press your lips together when you make it, so it's almost more related to an h-sound. I personally find it more difficult to make than the Japanese R.


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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 03.23.2013, 08:25 AM.

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arren18
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Nearly three years now! I imagine that you'll be picking it up at a much quicker rate than me though. From September I'll be there studying for a year, so that's when I should be improving the most.

And yeah, I'd agree that it's misleading to say there is no f sound. The loan word "kohii" (coffee) has been mentioned, but then there are plenty of others where the "fu" syllable is adapted to allow f to be followed by another vowel. For example, ファイル (fairu - file) and, appropriate for this site, フィオ (Fio). If f wasn't distinct from the h sound, those would just be hairu and Hio.

Since the h and f sounds are related to b and p, I find it helps to think about f as being like ph. In English, ph is just like f, but maybe imagining something between p and h is a good way to work out the Japanese f sound.

I hope that didn't sound horribly confusing.


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Kazegami
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quote:
Originally posted by arren18
むずかしかったです。

This type of adjective conjugates and in general behaves like a verb. That means that it is the part that changes to the past tense. です isn't really serving a grammatical purpose here - it's just a politeness marker in this case. Therefore it doesn't make sense to make that past tense also.

Right, I think I understand. Thanks. That makes sense. Affirmative い adjectives can be past tense without the help of でした, but negative ones and な adjectives can't. Got it.

I just came across that thing about there being different counting words for flat objects and sticklike objects etc yesterday. I thought that was a bit mad at first, then I realised we do it in English. Like, we don't say three papers, it's three sheets of paper. I think English will always keep its crown as most insane language.


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Calforsale
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I'm learning Japanese this semester. Just for this semester though. I wanted to do Korean, but they wouldn't let me do Korean 1 as i have studied Korean before, but Korean 3 is too hard - so i'll start it next semester at Korean 2.

But now i'm learning Japanese! Its quite fun (but hard at this pace!!!).


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Roarkiller
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quote:
Originally posted by Kazegami
Question, I has one.

I was working on past-tense adjectives, translating some phrases from the textbook, when this came up that I wasn't sure about...

If I wanted to translate "This test was difficult", would that be:

このテストはむずかしかったでした

or

このテストはむずかしかったです

or even

このテストはむずかしいでした

I don't think it's the third, but I don't which of the first two it should be. I don't know whether both the adjective and the です need to be in past tense or whether it's just the adjective.

2 and 3 are correct grammatically, although 3 is almost never used.

1 is wrong because the past tense suffix is repeated ( -katta + -deshita = past tense of a past tense = Marty McFly).


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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Orphic Okapi
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I think "boku" is being more commonly used by women these days. I could just be in a really informal part of Japan (which I think I am), but I have definitely heard middle school girls using it.

(I also noticed Utena always refers to herself as "boku," which is pretty cool.)

Middle school boys around here INVARIABLY use "ore," which prior to coming here I thought was supposed to be kind of rude. It probably is, and they're just doing it to try to sound tough or something. I find it kind of obnoxious.


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arren18
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Oh, interesting! Where in Japan are you? I've never heard of women using "boku" as really being a common thing, so I'm surprised by that. Maybe I could ask a friend of mine why that would be... In the case of Utena (fictional obviously) it's a part of her whole image, so I wonder what the reasoning would be for middle school girls, and if it's part of some broader trend.

I think "ore" can depend a bit on where you are. I forget exactly how it is, but I seem to remember in some dialects it's pretty common and not considered rude. On the other hand, I can definitely imagine it just being a case of young teenage boys thinking they're cool.


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Post last edited by arren18 on 03.28.2013, 06:11 AM.

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Orphic Okapi
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I'm living in Kochi Prefecture on Shikoku. It's pretty inaka, and the atmosphere is more relaxed than I was expecting. Most of the Japanese I hear around the office is pretty informal.

I know a lot of female singers use "boku" (sometimes just because a two-syllable word fits the melody better), so it might be a case of media influence. I think I read somewhere that the trend nowadays is for girls to use "boku" at school and to revert back to "watashi" at home, but I can't remember where I read that or if there was an explanation! Maybe they feel freer to do what they want around other kids, and some girls just feel more like a "boku" than a "watashi."


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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 03.28.2013, 06:55 AM.

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Roarkiller
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Maybe it's just an "in" thing at the moment? Like years ago when speaking in kansai dialect was all the rage, y'know?

In any case, traditional values no longer hold as much, er, value as they did before. It's like our English culture, where spouting vulgarities is "for emphasis", as one might say.

Besides, personally, "Ore" is easier to roll of the tongue than "Boku", so I never use the latter either.


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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husky51
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OK, I would like input from ALL the Japanese speakers in here...

A friend of mine named her baby Scarlett Sujey ...... (first and middle names)

She believes that Sujey means Little Star in Japanese. Now she is Mexican descent herself and the 'j' has an 'h' sound... Sue-Hey more or less.

Looking it up in my little dictionary, all I can come up with is 'chiisai hoshi', which I am sure is not the connected phrase, just the single words by themselves.

Any input would be appreciated. as well as the kanji for the spelling Sujey...


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Orphic Okapi
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I got nothing. I thought, at first, that she might have done the common thing where you combine two kanji and then pick the pronunciations you like to make a name out of them. For example, if I wanted to name my kid "little star," I would take these two kanji:

小星

Meaning "little" and "star" respectively. Both characters can be pronounced a bunch of different ways, so there are a number of possible names I could get out of this combination. Kosei, Saboshi, Koushou, etc. (I don't know if any of these are actual Japanese names though.)

Unfortunately the first character is never pronounced su (or suu or even shu) and the second character is never pronounced hei or he or anything, so you really can't get that name out of these characters.

I'm not totally sure how to render "sujey" in romaji, but all of my guesses, when I looked them up in an online dictionary, were not words. I think your friend was probably misinformed, sadly. If it's any consolation, I think it's still a cool middle name, even if it's not real Japanese.

(Of course I'm no expert and I might be wrong. I'd like to hear others weigh in.)


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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 05.02.2013, 08:54 PM.

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arren18
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I got that one reading for 子 (child) is "su", but I think that's a pretty unusual reading. It also doesn't quite fit the meaning. The closest I got with 小 are the Chinese reading "xiao" and Korean "so", which aren't too far from "su". I couldn't get anything appropriate for "he".

So I'm afraid it looks like Orphic is right! I was looking at the Chinese and Korean readings in case that might explain the confusion, but I still have no idea where that word would have come from.


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Orphic Okapi
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This got me thinking about how cool Japanese names are. I think 星子 (Hoshiko, star child) would be such a great name for a kid.


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husky51
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Well, the baby was born on Jan 13 and I, for one, am not going to burst her bubble and happiness about the name...

Thanks for your input guys...


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Roarkiller
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子彗 or 雛彗. Both read as Su Ei. '彗' is comet, if you can go abstract.

The problem with the first one, '子', is that the character is only ever used as the first character for a boy's name.

The second, '雛', is more commonly read as 'hina' (doll) in 'Hinamatsuri', or Doll's festival, celebrating Girl's Day. Unfortunately, it is also commonly read as 'hiyoko' or chick, as in the offspring of a chicken, not a hot chick.

There's my best attempt at abusing Kodansha dictionaries.


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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arren18
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quote:
Originally posted by husky51
Well, the baby was born on Jan 13 and I, for one, am not going to burst her bubble and happiness about the name...

Thanks for your input guys...


Totally understandable! I just wanted to see if we could figure out where the idea would have come from. Roar's suggestions sound closest, but even that sounds like a bit of a stretch... Sorry to disappoint, husky!


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arren18
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Just wondering, how many Japanese speakers/learners do we have on the Tavern? This is a good thread and it would be fun to make greater use of it! (I'll admit that I also want to be able to practise before I go there in September )


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Kazegami
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Well, there's you, Orphic, Roar, me... NC? I'm not sure if NC's still learning it. FFF, Cal... Saddles? Plenty of us, anyway.

I've been at the Japanese all day, going over stuff. Taking a break before I break some new ground. About to start chapter 6 of Genki I... Te-form.


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husky51
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Unfortunately, the only Japanese that I know is what I remember from my time in Japan over 40 years ago... (Gawd, that a Lo-o-o--o-o-o-ng time... sigh...)

Haha, I even have my little 'red book' , a small book of Japanese/English translations (both ways). It is roughly 10mm x 2-1/2mm x 3/4 of 1mm. I don't use metrics, so bare with me here, lol.

It is "Vaccari's Concise English-Japanese, Japanese-English Dictionary" by Mr and Mrs Oreste Vaccari. It has held up quite well over the years and none of the pages are tearing or loosening in the bindings... Very sturdy... And fits easily in the pocket.


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I know Mush knows a fair bit since she went to Japan. I'm not learning but I do just love hearing it spoken and try to pick up bits and pieces.


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