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Orphic Okapi
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I was going to make a new thread, but then I realized we already had this one, so I think I'll just hijack it. I haven't read any of the posts here yet, to avoid spoiling the show for myself.
I have finished the first four episodes of Evangelion. I'll try to post my thoughts as I continue with the series. So far I don't have a ton to say, possibly because I have no prior experience with mecha shows and nothing to compare it to, but I think it has a great visual style and has been directed with a lot of flair so far. I can see why it's considered an iconic show; it feels iconic. I like that the action has been kept to a minimum and the focus kept on the characters (I really can't seem to do shounen-style action, it gets on my nerves so fast).
That said, I don't feel like I've developed much of an attachment to anybody yet. I think Shinji behaves pretty realistically for a boy in his situation, but it's not a situation I can easily relate to, having never felt pressured into piloting a giant robot to protect the human race against giant alien things. (Do these aliens ever attack elsewhere, or do they just really love Tokyo? Does the show ever make an attempt to explain that?) I'm sure the show will evolve a lot as it progresses, but right now I could see this being something I admire but don't love, kind of how Saddletank felt about Utena.
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 11.27.2013, 07:02 AM |
  
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Saddletank
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Welcome to EVA!
The aliens (Angels) only attack Tokyo (actually the rebuilt new city Tokyo-3). The reason for this becomes clear later.
Like Utena the show works on more than one level and while Utena used a school as the outward setting for the real workings of the story, in a similar way Evangelion uses the framework of a world being attacked by aliens in which certain 14 year old schoolkids must pilot giant mechas to defend it as its outward setting. The story isn't really about that though.
While you could call Utena a "high school anime" it really isn't. Likewise some people think Evangelion is a "mecha anime", but it isn't.
You've already encountered one thing that's key, Shinji's reluctance to pilot his EVA in the face of pressure from his father to do so and in episode one his choice to either do it, or by refusing, have the badly injured girl, Ayanami Rei pilot it instead.
EDIT: I started rewatching it today as well to refresh my memory. Worked out its been about 5 or 6 years since I last saw it. Remembered that ep.5 is one of my favourites. Lots of really significant things in that one.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.27.2013, 02:06 PM.
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| 11.27.2013, 07:36 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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Ep 5 was indeed a good one. Rei was finally introduced as a character and the mystery surrounding her came to the forefront. (One caveat: Did Shinji really need to grab her boob for that scene to work? I think just walking in on her naked would have gotten the message across...) I've got some theories about her already. I think there's definitely a connection between the fact that Shinji's father cares so much about her, and the fact that in the very same episode she was directly compared to Shinji's father by another character. Those can't be insignificant details.
Episode 6 I was less enamored with. It was supposed to be the big payoff after the build-up of Ep 5, I think, but I enjoyed the build-up a lot more. Nothing about this episode really grabbed me until the ending, when we got a little more interesting interaction between Rei and Shinji.
It seems pretty clear already that Evangelion is only using the conventions of a mecha plot to tell a deeper story. (The show is about 90% character and 10% battle so far.) What's interesting is that I find the intrusion of mecha conventions into the story a bit distracting, whereas I was never bothered by the total lack of realism in Utena. I think it has to do with Utena being 100% blatantly ridiculous and fantastical from the very beginning, whereas Evangelion, as a work of science fiction, is ostensibly set in the real world. Maybe they'll shock me by coming up with a really, really good justification for why it has to be giant robots, why it has to be 14-year-olds, and why it's only Tokyo under attack. But so far I feel like the inherent goofiness of the premise clashes a bit with the show's serious intent.
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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 11.28.2013, 06:48 AM.
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| 11.28.2013, 06:45 AM |
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arren18
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I forget whether I've posted here already, but I'm not really a big fan. Since you like things more explicitly strange, you might enjoy the later episodes, like I did. For me, it was rather dull for most of the time, then suddenly too fast-paced to take anything in, but then I ended up enjoying the section afterwards where it goes completely off the deep end.
Anyway, it's no surprise that people's views of EVA vary so much. I probably would've liked it more were it not for all the hype, but having said that, there are certain aspects I appreciate, and its impact on anime that follows is obviously important.
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| 11.28.2013, 10:21 AM |
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Saddletank
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The boob-grab in that scene in Rei's apartment probably does the show more damage than good. I can see why Hideaki Anno included it, because at that point physical contact is significant. Its one of the things this early section is about, so it has its story purpose. It would not be the same at all without actual contact. It also makes Rei's reaction far weirder than it would have been if Shunji had just walked in and seen her naked. On the other hand it becomes borderline fanservice and so opens the show up to criticism. I like that moment, the contact is important and it works for me though I also admit to being uncomfortable with it.
Yes, the link between Rei and Gendo, Shinji's father, is explained more later on. Mm, that line by Dr Amagi in Misato's apartment is a key one:
"She's like your father. She's not very adept."
"Not adept at what?"
"Living."
That's a key moment. It also shows us a bit about the doctor as well. She's a fascinating person too and you only catch little things from her on a second viewing too. Stuff that you can't be blamed for missing the first time.
Episode six is one of those episodes that does not seem very significant on first viewing, but on a second viewing it's critical and it reveals a lot, there's all kinds of things going on with Rei that make no sense now, but do on a second view.
I can see your concern about the mecha sci-fi "getting in the way" of the story about the characters but even all the technobabble serves to show how much people like Misato Katsuragi and Dr Ritsuko Akagi are immersed in their jobs, fanatically so. Misato's character is for me one of the most interesting in the show. Her story develops later.
Unlike Utena being a high school romance story you can actually watch EVA as a mecha sci-fi story. It does completely work on that level and it has fans who appreciate it for that reason. Part of the huge outcry when the series first aired and ended was from the mecha fans being angry over such an ending. So the SF has its function too while as you say, no-one could reasonably claim to be cheated by Utena not having a good high school story ending.
On rewatching it again I can already detect a weakening in the art from the beginning 4 or 5 episodes and the middle ones. I know that Gainax studios ran over budget on it and it seems to be a trait of Anno's to do that. Compare the first 3 or 4 episodes of Kare Kano's art to what happens later in that show.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.28.2013, 11:23 AM.
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| 11.28.2013, 11:20 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Episode six is one of those episodes that does not seem very significant on first viewing, but on a second viewing it's critical and it reveals a lot, there's all kinds of things going on with Rei that make no sense now, but do on a second view.
I shouldn't keep steering the discussion towards Utena, but it seems like based on what you've written here that Rei might be a similar character to Anthy. One of the reasons I so strongly recommend watching SKU a second time is because Anthy becomes almost an entirely different character once you know all the twists. Her initially puzzling behavior takes on new layers of meaning in just about every episode. Let's just say she's not quite the damsel in distress that she appears to be, and there are subtle hints all over the place.
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On rewatching it again I can already detect a weakening in the art from the beginning 4 or 5 episodes and the middle ones. I know that Gainax studios ran over budget on it and it seems to be a trait of Anno's to do that. Compare the first 3 or 4 episodes of Kare Kano's art to what happens later in that show.
I've found the animation really great so far. It seems quite a bit better than Utena on a technical level, despite coming out a year before. I'm still on Ep 6, though, so maybe there's a noticeable drop in quality later on.
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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 11.28.2013, 11:45 PM.
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| 11.28.2013, 11:44 PM |
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Saddletank
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I might take that back about the animation quality. I noticed it in Asuka's facial expressions one or twice and in Misato's face but perhaps this is just different artists doing the drawings.
Given that its a year or actually two before Utena, its animation does seem highly advanced but the more stylised art of Utena was almost certainly a deliberate decision and not any kind of limitation.
Akira, for example, was made in 1988, eight years before and its animation is stunning in comparison to Eva, though of course it did have a movie budget and not a TV show budget and was only 90 minutes instead of 26 episodes.
One thing I've noticed on this rewatch is how intense and saturated the colours are, its a really profound visual spectacle after the washed-out subdued palette of Utena. I think even the colours are used to imply meaning, the three evangelions are so vibrant yet the pilots in their school uniforms are dull in comparison.
I suggest you watch the movie "End of Evangelion" after ep.26 as this really finishes off the "mecha" side of the story fully and goes on to explore all the other levels as well. The other movie "Death and Rebirth" is not worth watching for content as its a retelling of the whole series with a few extra scenes added. Dedicaated fans only need to watch that one.
The comparison between Anthy and Rei is an interesting one. There are parallels, yes. I think people who compare the two shows are not wasting time at all, there's a lot of similar content.
Knowing Japanese I assume you know that 'rei' means 'zero'. Rei pilots the prototype evangelion, unit 00, while Shinji pilots the test type, unit 01 and Asuka the production model, unit 02. There's symbolism in the numbering and even the physical shapes of the evas which differ.
In amongst all the sci-fi technobabble there's lots of people calling out values, often of small percentages and you get things like "rei, rei, rei, rei, rei, ichi" said over and over. Its another tiny little thing emphasizing nothingness.
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| 11.29.2013, 02:29 PM |
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Orphic Okapi
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Well I have now seen up to Ep 10.
When she's not being used for sex gags, I think Asuka is a really good addition to the cast. Rei and Shinji are both so reserved that it's nice to have someone more bold and outgoing to contrast them. The rivalry between her and Shinji pulled me back into the story when it was starting to drag a bit. Also Ep 9 contained the first battle I can say I genuinely enjoyed: the one that's choreographed to a piece of classical music, where Shinji and Asuka have to be in sync to defeat the Angel. That was a nice touch.
I don't know if I like where Katsuragi's story is headed. I'll have to see where they go with the old flame thing. He seems kind of rapey to me, not only in the way he acts around Katsuragi but around Dr. Amagi too.
Still not much in the way of weirdness. I'm sure that will come later. If I didn't know it got weirder later on, honestly I don't how I would feel about the show at this point; I can tell it's a really well-done example of its type, and I like it a lot more than any other shonen series I have tried, but I'm still not sure if it's my thing.
As for Utena/Evangelion connections, apparently Hideaki Anno and Kunihiko Ikuhara (director of Utena) are really good friends, and they were in contact with each other throughout the creation of both series. So I wouldn't be surprised if there end up being some thematic similarities, even if the shows are totally different on the surface.
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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 11.29.2013, 09:16 PM.
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| 11.29.2013, 09:14 PM |
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saviour2012
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NGE has a lot and lot and lot of fanservice i am very very afraid if anno directs nausica 2 then what will happen.very depressing.
Now that i think about it i think i do not like NGE i could watch it and pass the time but overall the massage is not very liked by me. However some geek things in that show is cool.
@we have a rule for hijacking thread,dont we?
LOL
I did not know you did not watched this exceptionally popular show. this series made more than 1 billion dollar years ago.
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its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
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| 11.29.2013, 10:55 PM |
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Orphic Okapi
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There are tons of famous anime shows I haven't seen. I tend not to like the really popular ones, apart from Ghibli.
I just wanted to note that Asuka speaks the most fluent Japanese, and the absolute worst German, of any German person to have ever lived. Also, her name is Asuka (?). If there's some explanation for this in this show, I seem to have missed it.
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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 11.30.2013, 05:51 AM.
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| 11.30.2013, 05:50 AM |
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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
NGE has a lot and lot and lot of fanservice i am very very afraid if anno directs nausica 2 then what will happen.very depressing.
We had this discussion before. I think your idea of fanservice differs from what everyone else agrees it means. There is no gratuitous sexual content, innuendo or underwear shots at all, and the ones you do see have another meaning, there's always something more being told by the scene. The director could have included fanservice in many scenes, such as Misato getting dressed, the hot springs scene, the pilots getting dressed into their plugsuits, etc, but he didn't.
If you think Eva has fanservice then I can't imagine what you'd think of some mainstream anime shows that really do have fanservice. Let's just say I strongly recommend that you avoid "Queen's Blade," "Princess Lover" and "Freezing". Those are shows that have fanservice. 
It's curious Orphic how you see Asuka "being used for sex gags". I don't see that at all but then again perhaps because I've seen it so many times and while at first Asuka seems flirty and naughty, the reasons why are explained later. She's initially really quite a normal teen girl, if somewhat pretentious, hyperactive and self-centred (but this may still fall into the remit of "normal teen" anyway). She likes to think she's grown up and that Kaji likes her but this is only her immaturity showing through.
I like Kaji, he gets a lot of my sympathy. He turns into a strong and rather tragic figure. He doesn't get much screen time but every frame of it is meaningful. Ruka reminded me of him a little, how he comes back into one of the main characters lives and wreaks havoc, forcing that person to see themselves and other things differently.
The weirdness begins to kick in at the very end of Ep.13 and picks up the pace after that. By ep.17 there is some really crazy **** going down and I had many WTF moments with some scenes. It's still mecha sci-fi but... it's just... gah. You get hints of it though many times before then, much like being clueless about Anthy's behaviour in the early episodes of Utena but what she does all making a lot more sense when you see it the second time.
Hm, interesting about the friendship and collaboration between Anno and Ikuhara, I didn't know that, it explains a lot.
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| 11.30.2013, 09:17 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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Yay weirdness! Made it as far as Ep 16 this weekend. My interest in the show has definitely gone up the last few episodes, beginning with Rei's bizarre monologue after the clip show. They're also finally beginning to raise questions about what the Evas and the Angels really are, and about NERV's true purpose.
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
It's curious Orphic how you see Asuka "being used for sex gags". I don't see that at all but then again perhaps because I've seen it so many times and while at first Asuka seems flirty and naughty, the reasons why are explained later. She's initially really quite a normal teen girl, if somewhat pretentious, hyperactive and self-centred (but this may still fall into the remit of "normal teen" anyway). She likes to think she's grown up and that Kaji likes her but this is only her immaturity showing through.
Sometimes I think they do a really good job with Asuka, other times I feel like they can be a little bit cheap with her. I'm not sure I have a perfectly rational explanation for why certain scenes don't bother me and others do, but for example, the kiss with Shinji in Ep 15 I thought was brilliant: funny, totally in character for both of them, not remotely exploitative. It was a necessary character building scene and I had no problem with it. On the other hand, how many scenes do we need where she flips out on Shinji for almost seeing her naked?
quote:
I like Kaji, he gets a lot of my sympathy. He turns into a strong and rather tragic figure. He doesn't get much screen time but every frame of it is meaningful. Ruka reminded me of him a little, how he comes back into one of the main characters lives and wreaks havoc, forcing that person to see themselves and other things differently.
The Ruka comparison makes sense, considering I don't really know how I feel about either of them. Ruka was kind of a tragic hero, but also kind of a huge asshole, depending on your perspective. In the end he was probably a bit of both.
At first I didn't like how strongly Kaji was coming on to Katsuragi, considering it was kind of unclear whether or not she was into him at all. Now that it's more evident that she really does like him, I've warmed to him a bit. Although he's still hitting on the doctor, and it's still unclear where his loyalties really lie.
Not sure what to make of the whole Adam thing yet, but boy, is that imagery striking...
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| 12.01.2013, 10:08 AM |
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Saddletank
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I'm pleased the material after ep.13 is more enjoyable. What is called by fans as "Rei's Solioquy" or "Rei's Poem" half-way through ep.14 is to me one of the most beautiful and heart-breaking things in the entire show. Sometimes it makes me cry. Once you have reached the end of the series, come back to that and listen to it again. In those few short almost Haiku-like lines, Rei sums up the entire essense of the show.
The Adam thing and the Human Instrumentality Project, the Dead Sea Scrolls and Rei's purpose in it are actually some of the story's elements I struggle with the most to get clear in my head. I can't but agree though that the imagery is astonishing, frightening and powerful, creepy as well.
There's also some very twisted machinations going on between Nerv, Seele, the Marduk Institute, the Japanese Govt and various other organisations and I simply fail to unravel some of that. It seems overly complex and obtuse and maybe that's intentional, people weaving webs of deceit and manipulation for their own dark purposes and living lives consisting almost entirely of lies. In a way that basic idea - lies, deception, self-protection and above all barriers put up to protect one's self and keep others out is the key thing and perhaps I'm right in thinking all the sci-fi and corporate shenanigans are really not relevant.
quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi On the other hand, how many scenes do we need where she flips out on Shinji for almost seeing her naked?
They are all essential, at least I think so and this is one of the reasons why I argue with Saviour that there is no fanservice in the show. Shinji's life is divided into two parts; the part outside EVA and the part inside EVA. At this stage of the story the experiences he's having inside EVA are self-affirming for him, positive and he becomes motivated. His father even rewards him with a public congratulation for his piloting. Misato and Akagi notice his increased self-esteem both in his rising synch rates and in some of his behaviour outside the pilots seat. Then we have his life outside EVA where he is interacting mostly with Misato and Asuka and critically begining to interact (finally) with Rei. The repetitive EVA battle scenes are balanced by repetitive "confrontations" in the real world and here Shinji's ego is continually bombarded with cruel attacks from Asuka about how useless he is, how superior she is and her teasing him with her body is an element of this. Every time you might think Anno is slipping into smut or nudity for the sake of it, he's really hammering another nail into Shinji's coffin of damaged self-esteem. I have a love-hate attitude towards Asuka. I hate her for how she hurts Shinji but I love her and sympathise with her because I can relate to her behaviour so well.
How people treat other people and how they protect themselves from the treatment of others is one of the cornerstone messages of Evangelion.
quote:
At first I didn't like how strongly Kaji was coming on to Katsuragi, considering it was kind of unclear whether or not she was into him at all. Now that it's more evident that she really does like him, I've warmed to him a bit. Although he's still hitting on the doctor, and it's still unclear where his loyalties really lie.
Those three are really just one big colossal mess. One of their purposes as a group of characters is to be a triumvirate adult mirror reflecting the mess that the three schoolkids are in. Two girls, one guy. One fiery hotheaded woman, helpless to the whims of her sexuality, one cold and reserved woman, secretive and distant and somehow... sinister. Notice how the colour red is common to both Asuka and Misato while the colours white and blue are common to Rei and Ritsuko. Asuka and Misato share strong, rich hair colours (Misato's hair would be naturally black but the art depicts it often as purple). Rei and Ritsuko both have pale hair. These parallels make you then look for parallels between Kaji and Shinji. While Kaji and Shinji take the same male role between two females they are very different and critically so. The 3-adults -vs- the 3-kids mirror is one of the more elegant and beautiful ways Hideaki Anno tells his story. It's tremendously clever and its one reason I love this show. The construction of each character's story alone is clever in itself but how so many stories are paralleled and intermeshed is amazing.
There's a Kaji-Asuka thing happening. You can see a Shinji-Misato thing as well. I think Anno did these things so that we would see more of what is going on in the other three characters and view them more critically.
Misato is trapped into a confused mess of relationships and father love-hate just like Shinji. There's so many characters I love in the show, Misato is one of my all time favourite anime heroines even though her life is a wreck. She's immensely brave and strong willed a great decision maker and we see later that she's aggressive and tough but she's also a victim of the need for love, companionship and to be appreciated. Its her tragedy that she seeks it in the wrong person, or possibly for the wrong reasons.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 12.01.2013, 12:25 PM.
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| 12.01.2013, 11:32 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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Thanks for pointing out the parallels between the three adults and the three pilots. That's an interesting angle I don't think I would have noticed otherwise. In hindsight, I can see what you meant about Utena not having as much to offer adults; I mean, I disagree, but it's true that it doesn't really have any adult characters (apart from Akio, who is more of an archetypal representation of adulthood in general, and not the most positive portrayal) and it has a slightly more melodramatic approach to its drama, whereas I can see the subdued approach in Evangelion appealing more to an adult sensibility (I'm referring specifically the interlude in Ep 15 here, the drama may get may crazier later).
One thing I recently noticed: while Evangelion does not recycle animation to anywhere near the extent of Utena, it does recycle music a lot more! I think the soundtrack so far has consisted of about four songs: the OP, the ED, a cheerful song for when Shinji and Misato are hanging out at home, and an ominous song whenever something dramatic is happening. Probably only bothers me because I'm a bit of a music nut.
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| 12.01.2013, 06:42 PM |
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Saddletank
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I noticed today while rewatching the sequence of "descent into crazy" episodes 14 thru 20 that the same music is used in Rei's soliloquy in ep.14 and Shinji's head-trip inside that weird orange-lit train or tramcar.
As to reused stock scenes, when Shinji runs away into the mountains early on several of those shots are reused behind Rei's solioquy but th ere-use to me isn't so much a cost-saving device as a device to make you draw parallels between them.
Also, if you listen to the "Fly Me To The Moon" ending theme, every single episode is actually a different version. No two are alike. One is sung by each of the female lead voice actresses (four of them IIRC), then there's different combinations of the ladies doing harmonies and then there's different musical versions. One especially fun one is a kind of funky bossa-nova beat. There's also one with some significant spoken lines at the start.
There's a strange bongo-drum beat piece sometimes when Shinji is struggling inside his head, there's snippets of classical music in there, the music to the dual attack by Asuka and Shinji, Shinji's cello solo, Pachelbel's Canon in D, Ludwig van's 9th are both used later on and Komm Susser Tod, written by Hideaki Anno. There's probably more musical variation that you might have at first thought. I agree though that some pieces are reused often and I think that's a cue to let you compare the content of those scenes.
When I posted earlier about Kaji, I went back to rewatch eps 14 thru 20 and specially focussed on his spoken lines and his facial expressions. I was right; every single nuance of Kaji is so significant. While Shinji is a washed out pale nothing of a person, repeatedly spending his days in aimless indecision, Kaji's part in the story is super-concentrated intense even though he has the least lines of any of the major characters.
The fairly short conversations between Misato, Kaji and Ritsuko at the wedding after-party is full of meaningful stuff, rewatching it is like trying to eat a really sweet sickly pudding - you have to take it in tiny bites and let one sentence go down before trying to injest another bite.
EDIT: I was looking through the NGE Wikipedia entry and found this:
quote:
The design and personality traits of the character Rei Ayanami were reused for many anime characters of the late 1990s, such as Ruri Hoshino of Nadesico, Ruriko Tsukushima (The Droplet), Miharu (Garasaki), Anthy Himemiya (Revolutionary Girl Utena), and Lain Iwakura (Serial Experiments Lain).
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 12.01.2013, 07:43 PM.
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| 12.01.2013, 07:06 PM |
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Orphic Okapi
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quote:
Also, if you listen to the "Fly Me To The Moon" ending theme, every single episode is actually a different version. No two are alike. One is sung by each of the female lead voice actresses (four of them IIRC), then there's different combinations of the ladies doing harmonies and then there's different musical versions. One especially fun one is a kind of funky bossa-nova beat. There's also one with some significant spoken lines at the start.
Oh, so they were different! I kept thinking I could hear minor differences but I never paid them too much attention, I guess. That's a nice touch.
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There's a strange bongo-drum beat piece sometimes when Shinji is struggling inside his head, there's snippets of classical music in there, the music to the dual attack by Asuka and Shinji, Shinji's cello solo, Pachelbel's Canon in D, Ludwig van's 9th are both used later on and Komm Susser Tod, written by Hideaki Anno. There's probably more musical variation that you might have at first thought.
"About four songs" was, of course, an exaggeration. I know there are quite a few more than that. I think it was hearing the groovy bongo song in Ep 16 that made me realize how little musical variation there had been up to that point, though. It was a little jarring to hear a song that hadn't been used before. I do like the occasional use of classical music, it's usually very effective.
The Rei/Lain comparison makes total sense. Not only are they similar in personality (prone to philosophical speculation, emotionally withdrawn to a level that almost suggests a form of autism), they even look a little alike. I don't know if the Rei/Anthy comparison holds up quite as well. Of course, I have still have a lot of Evangelion left to watch so my opinion of her might radically change, but when I initially compared the two, I was thinking more in terms of their general mysteriousness and odd behavior that only makes sense once certain plot twists have been revealed. I guess I was theorizing that they might serve a similar narrative purpose. In terms of actual personality, they strike me as quite different. Anthy intentionally masks her (very complex) true feelings behind a facade of sweetness and subservience, whereas I don't get the sense that Rei is purposefully hiding any part of herself, nor is she particularly sweet. It seems like ordinary human emotions are so foreign to her that she wouldn't be able to feign sweetness if she tried.
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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 12.02.2013, 12:39 AM.
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| 12.02.2013, 12:39 AM |
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Saddletank
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I agree, the minor comparison you make may well be the only inspirations Anthy takes from Rei although you can also say that while initially seeming to be minor and uninfluential characters, later on you discover they are highly significant and even the most significant character in the whole show. I don't think I'm giving anything away by saying that.
Unfortunately due to the severe turn in direction in the storytelling of Evangelion in eps.25 and 26 the physical world ending is never resolved and you need to watch the End of Evangelion film to see Rei in all her purposeful glory.
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| 12.02.2013, 07:53 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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I just finished Ep 20.
So . . . yeah, pretty neck-deep in weirdness at this point. All I'm gonna say is, I did not expect that ending. With the long static shot of the window. And the cup. And the--well, you know what I'm talking about. What was the age demographic for this show again?
Some potentially spoilery stuff for anyone who hasn't seen the show yet:
My initial hunch about Rei seems to have been roughly correct. She's Shinji's sister, right? Or at least his half sister. (So, of course, while he's on his mind-trip, she appears naked before him and asks him if he wants to have sex. Yay incest!) Not really sure about her mother, but I always assumed Rei had to be Gendo's daughter, or genetically altered clone, or something. It also seems to be heavily suggested at this point that Shinji's mother is . . . trapped inside the Eva he pilots? Is the Eva he pilots? Not really sure. Nor am I any closer to figuring out what either the Evas or the Angels actually are, though I strongly suspect now that Angels were created by humans.
I have greatly enjoyed the past few episodes. Seeing the conflict between Shinji and his dad finally come to a head was satisfying, and the bandaged Eva with one eye peeking out was such an arresting image. So far the psychological aspect of the show seems actually fairly straightforward, although the presentation is certainly unique, and a few scenes I am still puzzled by (don't know what to make of naked Misato, Asuka, and Rei all saying Hey Shinji let's have sex, except maybe, just maybe, deep down, Shinji secretly wants to bone all of them). I'm excited to see how everything plays out in these last six episodes.
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| 12.02.2013, 08:39 AM |
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Saddletank
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You're into the main course now. All these episodes are amazingly brilliant. I think they're a work of art. It's why Evangelion was such a huge influence on anime and pretty much single-handedly revitalised a flagging industry at the end of the 1990s, bringing in many more fans, especially in America and Europe.
The sex scene between Misato and Kaji is, to me, one of the greatest single scenes ever in anime. Its just one frozen shot with a dialogue over it, nothing moves, but you understand everything from it that you need to know.
You're getting warm with Rei (er, so to speak), but not there yet. You'll find out soon. There's an episode coming up that sets out the entire history of Nerv and how everyone came to be employed there including Futsuyuki's teaching days, Gendo's and Yui's university days, Ritsuko's youth and her mother... everything drops into place. And Rei. Rei's role is revealed.
The issue about the pilots mothers being inside the Eva's is close, yes. The tests Ritsuko does by swapping the pilots of 00 and 01 over is also deeply significant as you'll later find out, while Misato telling Asuka that she only wants to pilot 02 also makes sense in that context.
Also, we're into Asuka's tragic fall now, her spiral down into madness. Even though she's a bitch, my heart goes out to her through all this, its horrible.
Episode 23 is perhaps the climax of the series. As I said before, all the sci-fi just stops being told for eps 25 and 26 and the story goes off onto a totally different tangent inside people's heads. The "End Of" movie tells the story of the sci-fi/mecha end of it all.
The naked women offering to become one with Shinji in his head I think is probably just typical of teen boys. I certainly did and many others I suspect also do have sexual fantasies about all kinds of women and girls they know. The sexual union message though is a form of connection between two people, probably the ultimate form, and that is of course the main subject matter of the show. How people connect, and how often they don't or cannot, or prevent others from doing so, either wilfully or unconsciously. Even after sex with Kaji, Misato is using that sanctity of union to get close to him or get information out of him for her own purposes. Just using him.
When the Eva goes berserk and eats the angel taking the S2 engine into itself in an ape-like meal of destruction is a tremendous scene, very Frankensteinian, very epic.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 12.02.2013, 11:51 AM.
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| 12.02.2013, 11:45 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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Well, I marathoned the rest of the show.
Hmmm, where to begin.
I'm glad I watched it. Evangelion is a one-of-a-kind experience and an extremely interesting work of art. It's easy to see why it was such a major influence on the anime industry, and why it's still held in such high regard today. I think it's deserving of all the recognition it receives.
But my experience with the show mirrors Saddletank's experience with Utena. As much as I'm able to appreciate Evangelion in the abstract, I feel almost no personal connection to it whatsoever. I couldn't relate to anyone by the end of the series: I felt like I was being deliberately alienated from them, forced into the perspective of a voyeur, an outsider given a peek into these damaged psyches. That very well may have been Anno's intention, but as a result I was emotionally detached throughout the final episodes. I felt a faint glimmer of satisfaction when Shinji was finally able to confront the reality of himself, but otherwise the finale left me cold.
I still feel like the psychological portions of the show and the mecha portions are somewhat at odds with each other. As you've pointed out previously Saddletank, by final two episodes the sci-fi elements have been totally overwhelmed by the psychological exploration, leaving almost no room for answering the questions the series has been baiting you with the whole time. The history of NERV episode and the episode involving Kaworu were too little, too late. Had Kaworu been introduced earlier and developed more, his death would have had much more impact, not to mention there might've been more than two lines of dialogue devoted to the concepts of Lilith and Lilim, which seem fairly crucial, but which I do not in the least bit understand.
The history of NERV episode was a very good one, but it didn't do much to clear up the tangled web of conspiracy the show spent 20 episodes building up (still have NO idea what the Dead Sea Scrolls have to do with anything), or who is really working for whom.
Also, I still have absolutely no idea why the Evas must be piloted by 14-year-olds.
In the end, I think Evangelion is strongest as a psychological and philosophical inquiry. The concepts it explores are nothing you wouldn't encounter in a university 101 course on either of those topics, but it explores them in such a creative, insightful, and consistently artistic way that the ideas seem fresh and original. Unfortunately, the psychological heart of the series is buried in a mecha plot that didn't do much for me personally, and wasn't resolved particularly well. Still, even if you aren't a mecha fan, I think it's definitely worth persevering to the end, just for the chance to experience the show once it really finds its purpose and gets into its groove, because there's nothing else quite like it.
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| 12.03.2013, 09:18 AM |
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