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saviour2012
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 10.15.2013, 03:49 PM |
    
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San Toelle Ul Shichikokuyama-g
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... if it profits, then of course companies will do whatever they can to maximize income. Moguls will stop at nothing to create larger fanbases and sell products for those fanbases. If life sized dolls rack in money, is there a reason not to? I personally don't support those creepy life sized manikins but whatever. It's a means of business. Just like I don't condone fangirls my age buying life sized cardboard cutouts of Justine Bieber, but the stores that sell them make a decent profit, as they're ~40 dollars each.
You probably didn't have to mention sex dolls... we know what you mean if you exclude that part... it just makes things awkward...
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| 10.16.2013, 08:56 PM |
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Saddletank
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Are you talking about these life-like dolls? I find them just incredibly creepy because the faces and bodies are so realistic, but then there seems to be a market for them. I can only conclude there are some lonely people out there who are more comfortable playing out fantasies with a pretend person than finding a real partner. Its not something I find too hard to empathise with either.
I'd disagree with you that this is an anime subject though, it definitely should have gone in general discussion.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 10.16.2013, 09:25 PM.
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| 10.16.2013, 09:24 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
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| 10.17.2013, 05:04 AM |
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Roarkiller
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If the business world had morals, there wouldn't be a porn or drug industry.
You don't really need to think too deeply about this shallow subject. Business is profit oriented, and money is all any of this is ever about.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 10.17.2013, 11:02 AM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
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| 10.17.2013, 11:10 AM |
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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by husky51
I agree with you that this probably should have been in the General discussion sitr, but I do have an anime connection from one of your comments...
Saddles quote:
" I can only conclude there are some lonely people out there who are more comfortable playing out fantasies with a pretend person than finding a real partner."
The anime "Chobits" deals just with this subject. Realistic robots or Persecoms as they are called in the story are very lifelike in looks and being AI's to some extent. One character lost a human love to a persecom and another married a persecom. It deals throughout the story about people becoming so enamoured with their persecoms that they shut out the humans around them and relate only to them.
I hope to never see anything like that in my lifetime, but I do know that very life-like dolls are manufactured and sell today for thousands of dollars, even children aged dolls.
And, as others have said, where there is a market, there will be a supplier of product for that market.
Good reference Husky.
I actually posted it for that reason. NO i did not watched that but Anime characters are sooooo different that sometimes i really think i should stop watching Anime for good.
AI based dolls are available at market, And AI representative or AI character is a rapidly increasing research subject in universities Even in my university one of my teachers gave one of the final year students to develop a AI based character. I do not remember very well but i believe there was AI character named ANA or something.She is a news reporter. And this is heavily linked to anime because of vocaloid yeah some computer scientists created this. check these links
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocaloid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsune_Miku
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL5YKZ9ecpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GMQZMILy_8
Now see this is all the way related to Japan or Anime. Justin bieber [san you are not a bieber fan right] type things are there of course but its not really even close to reality but as anime chracters are already imaginary those dolls are something more problematic in my opinion.
And these are problems because these are viral things. that virtual singer's tickets gets sold almost like world football tickets or real-barca ticket.
But she does not exist at all. I must admit she is cool and it is addicting to watch as it is holographic and stuff.
I still like fact that it is shown larger , but who knows all on a sudden we will see a robot miku will be there to dance.
I would like to know about humanoid robot technologies from Mush and roar as she studies in the subject and roar is a M.E. student.
I think mostly 10 years to create a fully capable humanoid robot.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 10.17.2013, 11:16 AM.
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| 10.17.2013, 11:14 AM |
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San Toelle Ul Shichikokuyama-g
Ohmu
Registration Date: 04.12.12
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
[san you are not a bieber fan right]
God no. What kind of person do you think I am??? 
haha never.
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| 10.17.2013, 06:32 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
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| 10.17.2013, 07:30 PM |
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San Toelle Ul Shichikokuyama-g
Ohmu
Registration Date: 04.12.12
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Yeah, I was thinking that because his fanbase is so neurotic and obsessed. There's so much stuff with his stupid face on it everywhere and it really bothers me. 
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| 10.17.2013, 10:29 PM |
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Saddletank
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I wouldn't classify the Vocaloids phenomenon in the same argument with the life-like dolls issue at all; I think for the most part the life-like dolls are sex toys, or romantic companions for people unable to find real companionship.
The music industry has been making money out of "fake" and "manufactured" bands and music for decades, right back to the 1960s; going fully digital with a computerised singer is not a greatly different step.
EDIT: Looking at more of that concert video I think the whole thing is extremely clever, from the writing of the original software to the 3D animation and the lighting effects, and that's without mentioning the musicians in the band. There's more skill gone into that than some of the real manufactured bands we've seen over the years.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 10.17.2013, 11:13 PM.
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| 10.17.2013, 11:03 PM |
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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
I wouldn't classify the Vocaloids phenomenon in the same argument with the life-like dolls issue at all; I think for the most part the life-like dolls are sex toys, or romantic companions for people unable to find real companionship.
I have said about the *** section life-size toys. I am not considering that as a part of this discussion as that is in my opinion practiced less.of course you can include that too if you want
My point is the change of view in human nature to judge a doll. because as they are life like they are somehow believable.
and vocaloid phenomena is not related directly because voice synthesizers must be developed for our own need but this software for the first time allowed it to be humane. that where the problem begins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanoid_robot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_%28robot%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HRP-4C
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REEM
these robots looks very very close to human except movement they cant move well. Most of the humanoid robots are from japan.
that REEM robot almost looks like a robot from GITS[series or movie].
My problem is we are in my opinion trying to make a perfect replacement for human. of-course it is not what we want but we are doing it. We needed exceptionally effectiveness and precision in industry. it is already happening. See the Processors[chips of mobile and pc] making process and also most of the car industry people [except some like ferarri,bentley they mostly use hand]
have a great use for robots. But why we are not stopping at that or just try to improve or research based on that area. It is just because it is fun. Thats all there is. Most researcher research because it is fun to do so. Otherwise i do not see the use of humanoid robots. Many can say[those researchers] it can eliminate the loneliness of old people who are departed from their children bla bla.who are staying at old home or hospital. But it is not a good solution their children need to change their grandchildren need to change they need to give time to their grandparents. But we are not even recognizing this fact at all. It seems to me that we are applying wrong treatment without even determining the illness. So mistreatment will only lead to more illness. thats a problem i am seeing ahead us.
@san
thats a relief.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
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| 10.18.2013, 09:20 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
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This really isn't a topic for the anime section. Clearly your main concern is over much wider issues. It should be moved to General Discussion.
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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 10.18.2013, 04:32 PM |
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saviour2012
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Lets ask a simple question is it correct for artist to express human in different form other than real life.
More generally is it correct for the anime artists to draw the anime characters as they are or should they stick to the original representation.
Edit: And voice acting too, i believe human do not talk like that.Can anyone confirm most of the japanese do not talk like that?
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 10.20.2013, 05:50 AM.
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| 10.20.2013, 03:18 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012 Lets ask a simple question is it correct for artist to express human in different form other than real life.
"Correct" is an odd word to use. Given that people have made icons, images, models, sculptures and other representations of the human form in every single visual medium of the arts throughout history, I don't see why people should not wish to progress this today with the mediums we have now - robotics. Its inherently not wrong in and of itself.
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012 More generally is it correct for the anime artists to draw the anime characters as they are or should they stick to the original representation.
If I understand you right you are asking "is it right to have the huge eyes and other artistic conventions that Japanese animation uses, rather than they be a realistic portrayal of human proportions". There's really no answer to that, it can't be wrong or right, it simply is. Japanese modern drawings/manga and from those cartoons have taken the form they have via various cultural, societal and external influences starting in the 1930s and 1940s. I don't think you can say it's correct or not.
Western cartoons as well often exaggerate the human form, both male and female (just look at the shape of Disney heroines like Snow White or Cinderella and the physique of Prince Charming or Hercules). Often animation is used because you can exaggerate proportions, something less easy to do with live actors. To be blunt, men have always, throughout history been fascinated by the female bust - its appeal targets the most basic hormonal responses in men - so its hardly surprising that male artists and animators exaggerate busts in their drawings. Doing so isn't smutty or pornographic in itself, much depends on other factors. That we get so many large-breasted females in anime isn't therefore surprising or somehow 'dirty'.
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012 Edit: And voice acting too, i believe human do not talk like that.Can anyone confirm most of the japanese do not talk like that?
I have not listened to direct interviews with many voice actors/actresses but I have heard numerous female Japanese speaking normally and some women do have unusually high-pitched, "light" or soft vocal tones compared to some western women so I do not think these voices are completely faked.
However there's often an element of exaggeration in anime voice-acting.
They are exaggerated in some cases because many mannerisms that would be easily commuicable in live action (such as subtle facial expressions) are less easily carried by the simply-drawn faces of anime; thus sound effects like exaggerated "Huh?" or "Are?" are more pronounced than they need to be. There's other exaggerated sound effects such as breathing while asleep, eating, slurping noises when tea is drunk and so on.
I think most of these however are convention-related. Many art-forms carry with them conventions on how to depict things, in the west I could cite the exaggerated makeup of clowns which is done to specify a happy or sad face. I think many sound effects, like visual flags in manga (the double + sign on the forehead to indicate anger or the huge sweatdrop to indicate nervousness) are simply standard methods utilised to convey information to the viewer.
Note that I'm not discussing personality of female anime characters. That goes back to our earlier moe thread and is something different.
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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 10.20.2013, 08:23 AM.
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| 10.20.2013, 08:16 AM |
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saviour2012
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Thank you very much that was very interesting
But one which is the key point, How there can be something neutral between right and wrong.
You said the non-relative representation or what we call 'in the eyes of the artist" has been done throughout history but how does it make it "legitimate" no wrong word best thing to do.
I am feeling that anime characters are more likable than real human because we can put an artificial mask of characteristics over it. In real life it is more probable that a human is intelligent probability he is not very popular if he is then he might not have a good voice etc etc. what i mean the qualities that makes us attractive and the flaws that makes us humane is not practically or empirically everyone's disposal.
But that happens frequent in anime.Even if we leave out the magical powers and other things in anime still we have a lot of things that is out of ordinary. I think that is a reason why anime is popular.
As if the thing we could not be we are somehow trying to accomplish that by artificial character.
But still as long as it stays in the screen. But if that is tried on robots what will happen to our experience of reality.
Wont we surface into anime world?
Strange feelings. No?
offtopic:
maybe on topic.not sure
http://imtranslator.net/translate-and-speak/japanese/#
select English to Japanese. then select pacing,then type. then listen. simply suggoi. [it means amazing right guys.]
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 10.20.2013, 11:54 AM.
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| 10.20.2013, 08:48 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
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Whether any action is right or wrong is entirely subjective. The nazis annexing the Czechoslovakian Sudetenland in 1936 was a good thing, if you were a German National Socialist.
I personally think the construction of robots that mimic human motions and behaviours is a completely neutral industry. In itself its neither good nor bad. Possibly, I think, in the general advancement of science and technlogy it leans on the side of being a good thing; as in its a benefit to all of humanity and our amassed knowledge. Corporations who manufacture and deploy these machines if they ever get mass produced may use them more obviously for good or bad ends, but we can't predict what the future holds. Again a 'bad' or 'wrong' viewpoint for one person is a 'good' or 'right' one for someone else.
As to anime characters you must remember that these are fictional people created specifically to take their place in a story and that story has the principal aim of entertaining us - it might make us laugh, or cry, or be scared witless, or excited, but these are all manufactured entities who have a specific function. Therefore none of them (or very very few) attempt to depict the ordinary average person living an ordinary average life - because that would hardly be entertaining.
Its the same with live action movies made in the west. Look at your average Hollywood movie star. Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis, Daniel Craig, Robert Redford, Marilyn Monroe, Sophia Loren, Demi Moore - see a trend here? They are all beautiful people. Films are fantasy worlds filled by fantasy people and they always have and always will be beyond the ordinary.
Anime, like manga, movies, books and music are designed to entertain us and give us pleasure. They separate us from our ordinary lives for 30 minutes or 2 hours. They need to be unusual, gripping and visually appealing.
Note that on the other hand when an anime director wants to tell a gritty, dark or disturbing story he need not rely on huge eyes, shapely women and chiselled men. Akira, Paranoia Agent and Ghost in the Shell to different degrees are 3 examples of anime that use very lifelike faces and some disturbing personalities. From Ghibli Only Yesterday, Grave of the Fireflies and Ocean Waves are three more.
Robots will always be bound by the laws of physics, so they'll never attain the powers of anime characters.
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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 10.20.2013, 01:10 PM.
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| 10.20.2013, 01:07 PM |
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Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
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Is the colour green right or wrong? Is there something incorrect about an ellipse? Is it right to paint a clay pot? Are squares better than triangles? Is linear perspective a sin?
There's a lot of nonsensical questions you can ask, if you imagine that morals apply somehow to art. They broadly don't, and that is part of the beauty of freedom of expression.
Ancient Jews in the time of Moses considered it sinful to depict a human realistically, because it was considered along the lines of idol worship. So the artwork from that period has people with animal heads. On the other hand, we have a good idea about what many wealthy Romans looked like, because they weren't afraid of idols and tended to make accurate depictions of themselves. Is it right or wrong? Well that's really up to you. But unless you share the same foundational principles from which to make an argument, good luck convincing anybody else of your opinion.
Anime is deliberately out of the ordinary. Have you noticed an abundance of blue, pink, and green hair? It's not an accident. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with that (although I don't consider it "right" or "correct" either). If you have some deep ethical principle that rejects or espouses blue hair, then it's certainly your right to have a strong opinion.
If we do somehow "surface into an anime world" -- which I think is obviously unlikely -- then so what? Is that bad, per se? I actually see a lot of people around here with blue or pink dyed hair, just because of the geeky culture. It looks attractive on some people, on others not so much. Life goes on.
You can spend years coming up with an exhaustive list of "correct" and "incorrect" social patterns, but good luck getting everyone to agree to it, or proving that your list is better than anybody else's. Many have tried.
I'd love to talk about humanoid robots, because it's an interesting subject. But this is the anime forum, so unless we're discussing the immorality of Gundams, it's probably off-topic. One thing I will say though is that humanoid robotics research in Japan is generally being conducted with the view of improving robot mobility, safety, and interoperability with humans. The long-term goal is generally to improve care of elderly and displace menial labour, with some other niches. The institutes that build these robots (technical universities, large companies, and research corporations like NTT) sometimes give them human-like faces or make them dance and play instruments, but these are usually done as a publicity stunt to raise the profile of robotics research. Sometimes it's done explicitly to test whether people will react negatively to human-like robots, but most of the time the outward appearance of the robot is really tangential to the research being conducted.
To say that it's okay to paint an image on a screen, but not sculpt one out of clay or plastic... well, okay, if those are your principles then so be it. Anyway... I'm just going to leave this here.
I would definitely buy him if I could afford to.
Post last edited by Mush on 10.20.2013, 03:36 PM.
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| 10.20.2013, 03:16 PM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
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Yeah the color green might be wrong when it is a artificial pigment (is toxic) that is painted on a apple which will be fed to a child.an ellipse maybe wrong when it is a trajectory/path/orbit of a big asteroid that is going to hit earth.So the other examples.Got the point.
So it is not the object but the objective that can be right or wrong. Art obviously has an objective that is to teach,entertain or convey massage.So there is no way you can compare it with a thing say pen. A pen can do nothing but a judge can sign the death sentence of a person by it.
As i have been saying media can change person's opinion and thoughts. Anime is a part of that media.
So if it is popularizing from your example dying hair then it IS bad because it will cost the healthiness of hair.
My point of view is fairly simple which is if something is injurious to society then it is incorrect.Humanoid robots are not needed cause we have more than enough people to do our task unless we are wishing to kill them.The purpose of making humanoid robot is exactly what i said earlier. Personally i am fond of robots, even thought of making a assistant type robot myself.But the thing first came to my mind when i was planning that is i would take it everywhere i go. Just like a pet. The similarity is striking. I did not have time to have a pet[to feed,to wash etc] so a robot dog might be interesting enough. The goals of large corporation are same they are building robots like human to replace human cause they probably wont have feeling and no need for money[pay] etc etc.
Industries still need man to do the hard part of the job. As robot logic cant be that complex.So replacing them is probably a good idea with someone just like them.
Human imagination is fairly limited. They have done though out the history many things that lead to the suffering of many other.I think surfacing into an anime world wont be very happy for most of us. I think it would be the end of humanity in a sense. Though i agree its unlikely to happen we are probably going to kill each other before that.
Robot mobility is not needed in industry, it is needed in the battlefield. The drones are remote robots,aren't they?
I think i have never said or given a exact process of accepted behavior. But i have always suggested that man must remain within a limit. That is important. I do not like anime characters like that is displayed now, it is not okay with me, cause only that causes many social problems. But in my opinion when that is applied to a physical form we are encroaching toward something we should not.
That is my point of view. And after discussing with you guys i think i am correct.
Thanks
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 10.21.2013, 06:41 AM.
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| 10.21.2013, 04:51 AM |
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fenkashi
Dibs on Supreme Overlord
Registration Date: 08.12.07
Location: Canada
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OMG that is so awesome Mush. *wants*
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| 10.21.2013, 05:55 AM |
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