Ghibli Tavern - A complete Review On anime culture and its impact on the west West

Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749

quote:
Originally posted by Theowne
I wouldn't say that many of them are aimed at older audiences.

this i agree. thats why i said anime is lucrative

__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

01.14.2014, 02:45 AM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

My words "far more" meant "far more than in the west", not "far more anime is aimed at adults than at children".

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 01.14.2014, 05:04 AM.

01.14.2014, 04:55 AM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

I think what Saddletank is saying is even more applicable to manga, where the seinen and josei demographics are, if not quite as massive as shounen and shoujo, still pretty huge markets. Anime does tend to skew a little younger than manga I think, although the amount of anime produced for older teens certainly dwarfs the amount of animation made for that demographic in the West (basically none).

__________________
I like tea!

01.14.2014, 05:25 AM

arren18
Administrator

Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 10665

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
quote:
in English it means specifically Japanese animation.(with anime characteristics)

and also pokemon.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The Pokemon animated series and films are definitely anime, rather than something else. Unless that isn't what you were suggesting?

__________________

01.14.2014, 05:29 AM

Theowne
Baron

Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290

quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi
I think what Saddletank is saying is even more applicable to manga, where the seinen and josei demographics are, if not quite as massive as shounen and shoujo, still pretty huge markets.

Manga has far broader influence and market than anime, though. There are manga about golf and wine.

I think it's interesting to note the trend where manga aimed at older markets (especially women) are often adapted into films or dramas, whereas manga aimed at younger markets are usually adapted into anime.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
My words "far more" meant "far more than in the west", not "far more anime is aimed at adults than at children".

Thanks for the clarification.

Post last edited by Theowne on 01.14.2014, 10:21 AM.

01.14.2014, 09:45 AM

Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749

quote:
Originally posted by arren18
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
quote:
in English it means specifically Japanese animation.(with anime characteristics)

and also pokemon.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The Pokemon animated series and films are definitely anime, rather than something else. Unless that isn't what you were suggesting?

it was when i was thinking anime to be an entity within japanese animation, not it to be the japanese animation.

after saddle's clarification i understand that

anime=japanese animation as a whole

then actually i feel if there is no distinction between anime and japanese animation , there is little possibility that good works will get the focus and will be the torch bearer in the rally of all the shows. because mainstream people think that shows like pokemon is the kind shows that anime can offer

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 01.14.2014, 10:46 AM.

01.14.2014, 10:37 AM

arren18
Administrator

Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 10665

Thanks for clearing that up.

But anyway, I would say that that's how a lot of people tend to view all animation - stuff for kids that has no value beyond very basic entertainment. It's rare exceptions that are considered valuable, and even though there are numerous critically-acclaimed animated works, a lot of people simply aren't interested in them, because they don't see how it can be anything more than frivolous jokes for young children.

__________________

01.14.2014, 12:48 PM

Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749

quote:
Originally posted by arren18
Thanks for clearing that up.

But anyway, I would say that that's how a lot of people tend to view all animation - stuff for kids that has no value beyond very basic entertainment. It's rare exceptions that are considered valuable, and even though there are numerous critically-acclaimed animated works, a lot of people simply aren't interested in them, because they don't see how it can be anything more than frivolous jokes for young children.

But still adults[regardless of culture and country] see madagasker and toy story more than mononoke hime or nausicaa cause in their mind western animation definitely has a more positive image than japanese ones.

this is changing cause until coming to university i did not know one single person who saw a ghibli. But in the last year or two i have seen them sharing that they saw "Grave of the Fireflies"[and i did not ask them] because of imdb rating.[one of the reason why i joined this site] So i feel that although japanese animation wont be praised[actually after this discussion i feel it does not need to be praised] the good works will come to attention eventually.

So overall let it be how it is.

01.14.2014, 02:10 PM

Koda
Ohmu

Registration Date: 07.09.13
Location: England
Posts: 454

Really good read, though It's about more than one thing.

__________________
"A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge

01.14.2014, 05:21 PM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

you can't make people like what they've decided they're not going to like. Fortunately almost all anime is produced for the home market so what the average westerner thinks of it is irrelevant.

I just so love that special feeling of enjoyment when I discover for myself a beautiful and moving anime film. It would be great if more people knew of it but I'm at least confident that tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Japanese people are enjoying it too.

I sometimes must confess to a small pang of elitism and snobbery knowing that most westerners are not enjoying this, it seems to enhance its value. I know thats a totally negative and destructive emotion but I have to confess to feeling that way sometimes.

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

01.14.2014, 08:04 PM

arren18
Administrator

Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 10665

I see your point, saviour, but then a big part of why people would be more likely to see those western animated films is that they're actually marketed. Film distributors in countries like the US generally don't put that much effort in to advertising anime, because it's perceived as a niche market. When it is advertised, it's either as something suitable for children - palatable because it fits the average customer's ideas on animation - or as something edgy and exciting, which will then likely not have mass appeal.

__________________

01.14.2014, 10:15 PM

Koda
Ohmu

Registration Date: 07.09.13
Location: England
Posts: 454

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
you can't make people like what they've decided they're not going to like. Fortunately almost all anime is produced for the home market so what the average westerner thinks of it is irrelevant.

I just so love that special feeling of enjoyment when I discover for myself a beautiful and moving anime film. It would be great if more people knew of it but I'm at least confident that tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Japanese people are enjoying it too.

I sometimes must confess to a small pang of elitism and snobbery knowing that most westerners are not enjoying this, it seems to enhance its value. I know thats a totally negative and destructive emotion but I have to confess to feeling that way sometimes.

You literally shame the exact opinion as me, it does kind of feel more special knowing very few know about these films. At the same time it does sadden me knowing, not everyone else can share the same experiences I have.

__________________
"A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge

01.16.2014, 06:03 PM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
you can't make people like what they've decided they're not going to like. Fortunately almost all anime is produced for the home market so what the average westerner thinks of it is irrelevant.

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, I don't know if that's always such a great thing. I don't think anime should start pandering to Western audiences, but take Cowboy Bebop, universally regarded as one of the greatest anime series of all time. Its influences are primarily Western, and I think Watanabe has explicitly stated he was trying to craft something that would appeal to international audiences. Well, it worked. Ironically, no one in Japan has ever heard of Bebop (that I've talked to). It was critically acclaimed at the time but had almost no cultural impact. To this day it's much more popular in the US than it ever was in its home country.

I forget where I was going with this, except that there is good anime that Japanese audiences don't like, just as there is good anime that Western audiences won't give a chance. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with the anime industry as it is, although like every industry it produces a lot of crap I couldn't care less about, but I do think that if Japan's outlook was a little more international and a little less inward, we'd have more shows like Bebop.

__________________
I like tea!

Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 01.16.2014, 06:45 PM.

01.16.2014, 06:45 PM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

Generalisations such as I made always have exceptions. Bebop is a great one, but you have to look hard for them. In a way Bebop can't be called an international success if it has huge American appeal but less Japanese appeal. I feel sure its almost solely for the soundtrack, film noir aspects and its title. The exact same anime without the jazz blues and called (something like) "Ronin in Space" probably would not have had anything like the same western fanbase.

Bear in mind Watanabe deliberately tried to appeal to western viewers. In doing so did he lose the appeal to Japanese viewers? Is there a message in there for the anime industry? If there is, and they are mostly exclusive, which audience is it financially more lucrative to appeal to?

Also, fansubs. No doubt they are finding a wide audience but the studios get zero income from them.

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 01.17.2014, 06:10 AM.

01.17.2014, 06:04 AM

Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749

thats a good point. but ghiblis,gits and some other shows like hosada's movies are popular in both regions. Ofcourse within anime fans and some general people. I think if a show like cowboy bebop is not liked in japan very much then japanese anime fans like what i hate about anime.

However i think the idea that cowboy bebop is less popular in japan is not quite right. I would like to see some confirmation about that.

edit: so i searched it a little, and found it was well received but not as popular in japan as west. if we talk about popularity then definitely the otaku[which is a derogatory slang word] culture will come and also will come all the weirdness of anime culture. We are talking about general people. But even saying all these i can say it was the best show in its time when airing. problem is it is forgotten in japan but not here. thats a different story from a different perspective. also it is forgotten that is different story too.

Overall i disagree that Cowboy Bebop is not considered one of the bests of anime in japan too.

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 01.17.2014, 12:21 PM.

01.17.2014, 09:07 AM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

The only list of best anime I can find online that seems to have been compiled by Japanese viewers is this one by TV Asahi: www.japanprobe.com/2006/10/16/top-100-anime-list/

Bebop is #40. But the rest of the list is...odd to say the least.

EDIT: And here we have another list by TV Asahi which seems to be merely ranking shows by popularity with Japanese audiences: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/200...i-top-100-anime

I am troubled by the presence of Mahou Sensei Negima in the top five...

__________________
I like tea!

Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 01.17.2014, 06:38 PM.

01.17.2014, 06:27 PM

fenkashi
Dibs on Supreme Overlord

Registration Date: 08.12.07
Location: Canada
Posts: 5726

Really? Nothing on that list surprises me. Except King of Braves and Overman King Gainer, which I had never heard of before. Also, Candy Candy. And maybe that Doraemon isn't up higher.

Oh yeah, that second list you posted is much more sensical in terms or ranking.

__________________

Post last edited by fenkashi on 01.17.2014, 06:40 PM.

01.17.2014, 06:39 PM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

I think I was just surprised by stuff like Pani Poni Dash! (which I've never heard of) coming in at #3. And a show called Strawberry Marshmallow cracking the top ten. You know, stuff like that. Maybe they're masterpieces and I'm just really ignorant.

__________________
I like tea!

01.17.2014, 07:10 PM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

I imagine they're genres you are not interested in, or aimed at a different demographic to the one(s) you occupy.

Possibly 90% of anime really is watched by foaming mad fangirl 10 year olds and wanna-be 13 year old boy-ninjas?

Then again the sheer volume of anime produced is mind-blowing. I feel certain that what I know about is just a pimple on the behind of a polar bear sitting on the tip of an iceberg.

Its frustrating that there has to be loads of really great anime out there and I'll never find them.

EDIT: Just looked at the links. Shocked to see in the first list that Lain, Haibane Renmei, Paranoia Agent, Utena aren't even in the top 100.

Good to see that one at No.2. See? See? I told you.

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 01.17.2014, 07:27 PM.

01.17.2014, 07:21 PM