Ghibli Tavern - Mantra

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

If you don't want to debate, Saviour, at least educate yourself about various world religions. You owe yourself that much. Your claims about "every prophet" preaching "the same thing" betray your profound ignorance on the subject. Ever heard of Hinduism?

I was a Christian for the first eighteen years of my life. I truly believed in God and tried my best to uphold the religion's principles. I refused to defend myself when I was attacked by bullies because I genuinely believed in "turning the other cheek." I know what it's like to be a believer. And the more I learned about the world and its various religions, the harder it became to justify that belief, until finally, I couldn't.

I don't feel like I am free to do anything now because I have no religion. It's not as if I've stopped having morals. But I have to rely on myself more for moral guidance. I have to trust on my own ability to interpret the moral messages I receive from various sources. In some ways this makes life more difficult, but also more fulfilling, because I feel like I am making real moral decisions in a way that I couldn't as a Christian; I'm not simply choosing whether or not to obey an external directive.

Yeah, I probably should not have involved myself in this debate.

__________________
I like tea!

Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 05.30.2014, 03:21 AM.

05.30.2014, 03:21 AM

Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749

LOL man really lol

you are trying to teach me Hinduism, i suppose you know where i live.

Do you want me to write an essay how those beliefs came into place. But history is not a fact i can tell. But i can provide semi-verifiable history.

Please finish this books written by syed ameer ali in 1891 from London

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syed_Ameer_Ali

i am currently reading this one so giving it to you. just read the first few chapter if you are reluctant reading others.

https://archive.org/details/spiritofislamorl00alisrich

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33540874/The-S...er-Ali#download

the first one is amplified edition on 1921 so better printing.

read this book and after finishing ask me i will give you another one.

and if you want a book from non-muslim writer then ask again.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Please orphic try to understand i am not trying to be oversmart or something but i have spent a lot of time on the subject, thats why sometimes my words seems a lot difficult to many of you. But i cant do anything about it as most of you are reluctant to spend that amount of resource of yourself into religion as to you religion is not important at all. When i said every i specifically meant judio-cristian-islam. you were just too lazy to see that.

OK

__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 05.30.2014, 04:57 AM.

05.30.2014, 04:44 AM

husky51
The Old Guy

Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12791

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012 When i said every i specifically meant judio-cristian-islam. you were just too lazy to see that.

OK

Really, savior... Was there any call for your last sentence?

__________________

05.30.2014, 05:48 AM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
Please orphic try to understand i am not trying to be oversmart or something

Clearly.

__________________
I like tea!

05.30.2014, 06:22 AM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

quote:
Originally posted by arren18
But the rest of what I said was rather different from your viewpoint. It irks me a bit that you just deleted the parts of my post where there was criticism to respond to.

But those two points were the key content. The rest of what you wrote was supporting material behind both points. I removed it not so I wouldn't have to respond to it, but because I saw nothing in what you wrote to respond to. Your points were made in the two parts I quoted, which is why I quoted them.

What part of what you wrote doesn't support those two points and doesn't agree with my earlier post?

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

05.30.2014, 06:52 AM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi Just because Christians are for the most part peaceable now doesn't mean Christian history isn't rife with horrific violence.

There's a whole lot of very unpleasant things going on in U.S.A. society and politics right now that builds a good case to argue against that statement. America is trending more and more towards fundamentalism, or rather (as I referenced above) political movers and shakers are exploiting fundamental aspects of Christianity to further their own ends. The end result is the same, religion becomes a tool with which to cause suffering and do evil.

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012 i AM saying there is only one religion. Ever since the birth of human kind. And that is Islam.

This is so self-evidently untrue I find it hard to really beleive you think this way.

What about the gods of ancient Greece? Rome? Incas? Egypt? The Norse peoples? The North American Indians? The dudes who built Stonehenge?

What about Shinto in Japan? Buddhism?

The faith of Christianity was in place and (muddily) changing shape several hundred years before Islam burst upon the scene. It is clear to many Christians and Muslims that the Christian god and the Islam god are not the same entity, but even if they are why should two huge swathes of humanity hold conflicting belief systems about him?

Why would one god give his instructions to a bunch of middle-eastern scattered tribes about 4000 years ago, guide and nurture them (and order them to commit terrible genocide on other tribes whose only crime was to not beleive in him, and that was because he hadn't bothered to tell them about himself [nice guy, huh?]) then complete his master plan by sending his son to earth to die and be born again to atone for all sin ... and then 600 years later tell another prophet - "Oh wait, that was all wrong, men screwed that up completely, damn that freewill malarky. Here, try these rules instead, this is what you should beleive about me".

It makes no sense. None whatever. Not a scrap.

You clearly have no concept that there are and have been myriads of religions in the history of man, myriads of different and completely incompatible belief systems, the vast majority of which are not monotheistic.

Among all the many belief systems and religions man has cooked up, Islam is not even a major player if you look in terms of how many beleivers that religion has and had in comparison to other belief systems in history.

To claim that the religion you beleive in is the only correct religion is also insufferably arrogant. I met many good-thinking and lovely Christians in my time at my church but deep down hidden away was a frightening arrogance in some of them about the rightness of their belief and the wrongness of Islams' followers (to name just one other religion).

And its this arrogance and inability to meet and accept the other that has cost this planet millions and millions of lives.

Please just answer the question - Do you deny that religion has been the direct cause of many many deaths and much, much suffering and anguish throughout history?

And if you don't deny this, how can you defend such a murderous, intolerant, xenophobic institution?

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 05.30.2014, 07:32 AM.

05.30.2014, 07:05 AM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

Saviour - a little tip on internet debating. If you have a point to make you need to argue it yourself. You need to go to the effort to inform others. Throwing a few links at people and saying "go away and read that" isn't good debating protocol because we want to hear what you think and to try and understand what you believe and how you interpret things. Us reading a bunch of texts isn't informing us of your thinking and that's what I'd like to experience.

We could all sit here and just type out lists of links. It wouldn't push the debate forward at all.

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

05.30.2014, 07:36 AM

Tea Master Tall
Totoro

Registration Date: 04.01.07
Location: United States
Posts: 730

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012

@Tea Master Tall

You can only understand when you die if you really feel like going to hell. I dont think you have suffered from any kind of really bad experience, bad experience is bad and hell is extremely bad.

_----------------------------------------------------------------------------------_

But all these things are untestable and thus why i try not to write them as statements but as this is not a debate but merely a chit-chat i can be a bit less serious about it.

Are you saying that nobody will reach true understanding at death unless they want to go to hell??? I'm not sure what you mean... Yes, hell would be extremely bad. But, it's also extremely fictional.

__________________

Check out my music:

05.30.2014, 08:07 AM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

To give an example of the kinds of things that seriously undermined my beliefs when I was a Christian, the subject of hell was one.

Among other things the core Christian beliefs (as taught in contemporary Anglican churches) go like this:

1) God loves you more than you can know.
2) He wants you to be happy.
3) He wants you to beleive in him and so live forever in heaven.
4) If you do not beleive in him, you go to hell.
5) When you die, you are judged by Christ and he looks into your soul with perfect compassion and love. If you ask him to save you, and truly repent, he will.

Given this string of facts it seems entirely possible to me that hell is completely empty of human souls. You would have to be both completely stupid and completely, insanely self-hating and self-destructive to stand before Christ, be judged and THEN refuse to be saved by him, knowing that your act of rejection was going to send you to hell for eternity.

Thus, went my thinking, if hell is empty (and surely it is) then why does it exist?

Also if god is compassion and unrelenting love personified why would he send anyone to hell simply for exercising the free will that he himself gave them?

Duh?

Logic loopholes like these could not be answered by my church contemporaries in any way. Even my church leader could only offer "each of us is on a journey and a developing relationship with Jesus. You should spend time in his presence and work these things through in your own heart". Such answers were so unsatisfying; he was saying "I have no answer", and I can only take so many "I have no answers" before something snaps and my brain demands answers.

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 05.30.2014, 12:12 PM.

05.30.2014, 10:31 AM

Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749

quote:
Originally posted by husky51
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012 When i said every i specifically meant judio-cristian-islam. you were just too lazy to see that.

OK

Really, savior... Was there any call for your last sentence?

you mean the lazy part right, well orphic and i have a good relationship so it does not matter. or did i get it wrong

@saddle

first thanks for the tip.

But i did that a lot of the time huge posts with lots and lots of thoughts.

So i am not sure what you really want.
I can possibly give you two things

1.My ideas and the reasoning why i hold them. Thats what i did in the last post. But you were not satisfied because my thinking that there is only one true religion is not acceptable to you.

2.How i came to that reasoning. or the facts, the links i give is something similar.

But you now say you want me to describe how i joined the two.

I did that earlier but it takes much time to do that because it took me hours of study and thinking to get those points.

Describing that is almost crazy. Which i will only try who are open-minded. Both you and orphic are almost self righteous, you think your careful judgement is the morality. Then how can i think you guys will accept my words. so its not worth my time.

And as you guys are like that i think it is better to just leave links and references so that you can read when you are ready. If you cant give enough effort to read a book how can i assume that you will give enough effort to understand my posts.

everything in your post is answerable the beginning of the religion parts with fact and the hell part with logic, but will it make any difference. If i tell how people changed the Christianity and Judaism faith and how exactly things like heaven or hell is handled by god, will you change your mind. Islam gives many of these answers very clearly, thats why i can take very strong positions in many of the decisions. If you have never applied the rules of islam you dont have the right to question them this is my thinking, your bad experience with Christianity does not encompass Islam.

My point is i want to ask both of you if there is anything reasonable that i can provide that you will turn to islam. If not then i should not waste my time debating.

And

religion is NOT the cause of any kind problem it is the people.

@tea-master

i meant the way you say that you will happily go to hell, will not be that easy if there IS a hell. And as far as i know the consequences of afterlife only can be experienced after being dead, so its a do or die match here in earth. Either you are faithful or you are not. If you feel like taking a chance with a religion i would suggest Islam holds the maximum probability being the truest. But thats a suggestion, its basically your choice.

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 05.30.2014, 11:22 AM.

05.30.2014, 10:45 AM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
But you now say you want me to describe how i joined the two.

I did that earlier but it takes much time to do that because it took me hours of study and thinking to get those points.

This is how much effort you have to put into good solid debating. I didn't say it was easy.

It was you who started this debate by answering my first post, now you say its not worth your time.

I am happy to spend a lot of effort to try to convince anyone that belief in god is wrong. There is no such thing as god. If you don't want to be a part of these debates THEN DON'T START THEM.

quote:
Both you and orphic are almost self righteous, you think your careful judgement is the morality.

*We* are self-righteous? I am judgemental? I thought you were the one who claimed to know my mind a couple of posts back. I've been a part of organised religion and at one time in my life held firm beliefs. I no longer do because I could not reconcile the contradictions and inconsistencies in Christianity and with and in other religions. Among other things I found too many holes in their principles, too many different beliefs from people around me and too little evidence in their history to withstand careful study; there were also too many sub-sets of different teachings within Christianity and not just the Roman Catholic -vs- Protestant divide, but many divisions with the Protestant church.

For example, many Christians accept and believe in dispensations and covenants, many other Christians do not and still hold to old testament teachings - they cannot both be right. Christians argue over how many dispensations there are, the number ranges between 3 and 37 (!!) BTW, as you claim Islam and Christianity are the same you know exactly what I'm talking about when I mention dispensations and covenants don't you? Because according to you, they're a part of your religion.

It struck me after about ten years of being a part of this that there actually is no such thing as a single religion. There are billions and billions of religions on earth and each one is beleived by just a single person. We are not a hive-mind, we can never fully understand a person next to us, not our neighbour, not our children, not even our life-long partners. Each of us soaks up our own experiences and deploys them back towards the world as our actions and words and beliefs. In this way each of us reads a holy book, tries to understand it as best we can and comes to a point where we have a belief, but it cannot be quite the same as anyone else's belief. One practitioner of Islam may live a life of loving peaceful kindness among Christians and he knows that is what god wants him to do; another hijacks a jet plane with 200 innocent people aboard and deliberately crashes it into a tall building with thousands more innocent people inside, and he too is convinvced he is doing what god wants.

They cannot both be right.

Yet - they are, because their religion to them is their truth. A while back Roarkiller said that religion is not to do with the people. What I'm saying proves that to be wrong, religion consist only of people. And people screw religion up.

Its a Schrodinger's cat situation. The cat in the box is either alive or dead but we can't know that until we open the box and look at the cat. You say god can exist without people to beleive in him, but I say that a god can only exist if he has believers. If no humans exist, how can we say if god exists? God's whole purpose in creating the earth was to create a place for his ultimate creation - man - to have life. Without man there is no reason for god to create a universe and put planets in it full of non-sentient life. God, like the cat, can only be alive (true) or dead (false) if men are there to take a look at the evidence (believe in him). Why would any god create a universe and a world in which only simple (non-self-aware) life exists and nothing can know he's there? Or believe he's there?

You claim that Islam and Christianity worship the same god, yet Christians believe in a god consisting of three persons with Jesus being god along with the father and the holy spirit. This is in direct contradiction to Islam's teachings that god is one only and Jesus was an ordinary man, not god. Those two facts cannot be denied and Jesus as god is the main cornerstone of Christainity. There is no way that Islam and Christianity can be said to hold the same beliefs concerning god. Ergo they cannot be the same religion and one cannot be a sub-set of beliefs of the other.

I would not say I am self-righteous, I just know what I know, beleive what I beleive and have experienced what I have experienced. Even if there is a god I do not want to be a part of any organised religion because all of them are corrupt and wicked acts are done in their name, whether you personally beleive Islam is peaceful or not isn't relevant, the facts of 9/11, 7/7 and many other atrocities cannot be denied and religion is the root behind all this evil.

Those are a few of my belief cornerstones. My mantras if you like (and to keepo us on topic). I would be delighted if you personally could make the effort to present to me words that would make me change my mind. Don't link me to a bunch of books I'm not interested in reading, convince me yourself. Its a calling from Allah, you can't refuse.

quote:
If you cant give enough effort to read a book how can i assume that you will give enough effort to understand my posts.

I already explained why. Go back and read what I said, the answer to that question is there for you already.

quote:
My point is i want to ask both of you if there is anything reasonable that i can provide that you will turn to islam. If not then i should not waste my time debating.

Is that why you enter these debates on the Tavern? To try and convert people to Islam? Don't you think its enough to widen your own horizons by seeing the world as others see it? Is that not useful in some manner?

Also - that's shocking - you say that intelligent debate is a waste of your time otherwise? Doesn't Islam teach you to be patient and open-minded and converse with others?

You still didn't answer my question above. Your evasion is noted.

quote:

religion is NOT the cause of any kind problem it is the people.

They are one and the same thing. Yes a religion without people cannot do any evil, but then a religion without people cannot do anything at all. Orphic made a solid argument above why religion can't even exist without people, so don't keep going back on old arguments we've resolved already. In order to exist a religion must have believers in it. Plants and dogs and toads are not going to do it. But bring people into the equation and the corruption and evil begins. Moses receives from god the only commandments people need to live by and off the people go and worship other idols. Bit of a bummer that, isn't it?

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

05.30.2014, 12:05 PM

Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank

BEFORE this point i dont have anything to say. basically waste of my time. you have too much confusion and need to read a lot of books on religion and how they came to be.

And i really did not started this i just asked as you posted that you dont like to believe religious people and i said vice-verse is true too and asked if there is anyway to minimize this. then you just lectured about how one is better bla bla

--------------------------------------

quote:
My point is i want to ask both of you if there is anything reasonable that i can provide that you will turn to islam. If not then i should not waste my time debating.

Is that why you enter these debates on the Tavern? To try and convert people to Islam? Don't you think its enough to widen your own horizons by seeing the world as others see it? Is that not useful in some manner?

Also - that's shocking - you say that intelligent debate is a waste of your time otherwise? Doesn't Islam teach you to be patient and open-minded and converse with others?

I was just starting to write on this in the random thread then i saw this.

When we did our first debate it was quite shocking to me that many of you dont recognize social crime as a crime at all. then i came to know that many of you are atheist. Which was another shocker.

So i tried to prove the existence of God in some ways, which created a paradox of circulating facts that many of the statements cant be proven experimentally. So i stopped.

After that every debate started it stopped, whenever a moral or social question arose and many could not agree with me. Thats what made me think[and i still think] it is the atheist behavior that makes one to just ignore morals. Thats when i tried to make religion important in discussions. However the problem is people then start to point to their own religion to make it look bad, although it is not that simple. So then i tried to make my arguments from Islam. But then people start to say they DONT have the resources to test it fully.

If you carefully notice my first posts/threads i always tried to be as much neutral as possible. But if a religion is really true what can I do about it. I never joined in tavern because i wanted to make all of you muslim. But it is pretty sure that if you guys try to make a false argument out of religion i will try to make you convince to rethink that. To do that as a matter of fact you need to go any extent in my opinion because religion is extremely important. But if you are not willing to go that far, why should i try.

And thats when i say WASTE OF MY TIME.

I have done a lot of excellent Intelligent debate here in tavern. The way NC, Mush and many response is much better. It seems to me that they are in the middle of something will sort it out by their intelligence someday. but i know you too. So i know to an extent how you think and probably will respond. I dont think redoing the same stuff again will make my horizons any wider, narrower maybe. The way you say "I am happy to spend a lot of effort to try to convince anyone that belief in god is wrong. There is no such thing as god." Is a crystal clear indication of the matter.

quote:

You still didn't answer my question above. Your evasion is noted.

I am sorry which question

quote:

Moses receives from god the only commandments people need to live by and off the people go and worship other idols. Bit of a bummer that, isn't it?

it is a bummer if you think that way, i dont. What Musa[pbuh] did and everything is quite vividly told in quran and hadith. so you can clear you conception from those.

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 05.30.2014, 01:41 PM.

05.30.2014, 01:28 PM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

Against all better judgment, I press on. I'll try to keep it short.

If Hinduism is not a religion, what is it? I don't think a book written by a Muslim scholar will provide me with an unbiased answer, considering the long history of dispute between the two religions in India. There is nothing wrong with getting information from books written by other Muslims, but if that is your only source of information, you are reading only to reinforce what you already believe. Have you ever tried reading a book that might challenge what you believe? Anyway, all evidence points to Hinduism being much older than the Abrahamic religions. I don't think it is even a matter of dispute in the academic world.

You shrugged off Saddletank's list of religions: ancient Greek, ancient Egyptian, Celtic, Native American, Shinto. Do you really consider all of these to be "bad" offshoots of Islam? What about the religion of the Aztecs? How'd Islam get over there exactly? In order to justify the existence of Islam in the Americas at that time, you basically have to throw everything we know about history out the window and insist on some kind of conspiracy in the intellectual community.

I mentioned my past with Christianity only because you implied that I do not "have what it takes" to be really be religious. But I do, or did. I was a member of the One True Religion™ (Christianity counts right? Since Jesus taught the same thing as Mohammed.) Like Saddletank, I have experienced both mindsets at different points in my life, the religious and the nonreligious. What about you? Can you really judge the nonreligious without ever having experienced a mindset outside of Islam?

__________________
I like tea!

Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 05.30.2014, 06:52 PM.

05.30.2014, 06:50 PM

Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O

Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077

Considering how I disagree with everyone's points here, this will be my only reply:

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

05.30.2014, 11:54 PM

Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749

Do you actually read my posts, orphic?

What you said here was actually answered in the posts before. That is if you want a non-muslim writer's book just ask. Is not it pretty obvious that i need to learn from different viewpoints. I gave you that book cause that was what i am reading right now.

To understand how those religion came you need to study a lot.
many very good books have been written on the subject. And you need to learn a little about geography too.

NB:if you were in the time of Isa[pbuh] before Mohammad[pbuh] then it would have been counted. but now it wont as it has been already changed.

05.31.2014, 01:05 AM

husky51
The Old Guy

Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12791

hhashaha, move over Roar, and pass the popcorn...

__________________

05.31.2014, 03:55 AM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
you have too much confusion and need to read a lot of books on religion and how they came to be.

What makes you think I haven't? You're aware the Celts had a belief system around 3500 years before Islam and around 1000 years before the earliest Abrahamic religion. I'd be interested to hear your explanation of how that belief system is somehow related to Islam. Your claims for Islam are flying in the face of all known academic and historical evidence on the subject. Islam is the youngest major religion in the world coming 600 years after Christianity and around 2500 years after Judaism.

In several of my posts above I make counter arguments and ask you questions. You choose to ignore them all. I spent a lot of time and effort writing in these debates but each time you duck and weave and throw out comments that "I need to read more" or Orphic "needs to improve his geography" without actually making clear what your issue with what he said is. This is very poor debating style and very frustrating to respond to.

It would fascinate me for you to go back over my last few posts and actually respond to the points I make and the issues I raise.

So - what of the Egyptians? Shinto? Norse mythology?

quote:
it was quite shocking to me that many of you dont recognize social crime as a crime at all.

You need to look at the world from the other side of the hill. To us its a limiting factor in our debates (but not shocking) that you do recognize social crime.

quote:
So i tried to prove the existence of God in some ways, which created a paradox of circulating facts that many of the statements cant be proven experimentally. So i stopped.

You should have considered your options at that point. Given that god's existence can't be proven or disproven I was amused to see you even try.

quote:
After that every debate started it stopped, whenever a moral or social question arose and many could not agree with me.

You should try to put aside your self-centred and self-important mindset. It wasn't that we didn't agree with you it was that we as a collective group could not agree with each other. If you face the issue of non-agreement with a neutral mindset you begin to see things a different way.

quote:
Thats what made me think[and i still think] it is the atheist behavior that makes one to just ignore morals.

You are quite wrong. You also constantly avoid my statements that factually highlight that its organised religion that tends to provide people with a vehicle by which they can ignore morals (crusades, inquisition, 9/11, etc).

quote:
If you carefully notice my first posts/threads i always tried to be as much neutral as possible.

Please forgive me. I must have missed that phase.

quote:
But if a religion is really true what can I do about it.

Question if its true? If a member of another religion claims his beliefs are true and his god is the one true god then one of you is mistaken, right? Why not sit down with a committed Christian or Hindu or Wiccan and discuss it with them? One of you is wrong and you can bet your last dollar that the other person will know it's you.

That is how I see religion now, a bunch of self-righteous dudes who think they know best, think their god is true and shut their eyes to anyone who says otherwise. Worse still they inflict these beliefs on their children before that child has a mind mature enough to make his or her own choices on the subject (this is the most insidious way that religion is perpetrated BTW; brainwashing of children - its a crime worse than physical assault and Orphic endured trauma in the years of his childhood because of it), they twist their holy books to give them the guidance to go out and murder people. And finally none of what they believe can be proven.

Look at it dispassionately if you can. Why would any right-thinking person want to be a part of that mess?

quote:
it is pretty sure that if you guys try to make a false argument out of religion i will try to make you convince to rethink that.

I would hold the mirror up in front of you on that one.

quote:
To do that as a matter of fact you need to go any extent in my opinion because religion is extremely important. But if you are not willing to go that far, why should i try.

And thats when i say WASTE OF MY TIME.

Then don't answer my post and don't ever join any of these pointless debates on the Tavern again. Please.

quote:

I am sorry which question

The one I asked up the page a bit a couple of posts ago, but its okay. You don't answer any of my questions anyway so missing that one is hardly a major stumbling block. And if you expect us to go away and read tomes on religion but we don't actually have that time at our disposal right now (give me a couple of months okay?) then I can hardly expect you to scroll your mouse wheel a few times and read a 1000 words of internet post on this page to find the question I asked. That would be clearly too much effort for you.

quote:

Moses receives from god the only commandments people need to live by and off the people go and worship other idols. Bit of a bummer that, isn't it?

--------------------------------------

it is a bummer if you think that way, i dont. What Musa[pbuh] did and everything is quite vividly told in quran and hadith. so you can clear you conception from those.

I don't think that way either, Christians and Jews know that is what happened. Men turned to corruption as their great leader was before his god being granted wisdom.

That was my point, that men are corrupted by religion too easily.

The quran and hadith came a little late to twist the facts seeing as what Moses and the Israelites reportedly did was written down around 10 to 15 centuries before Mohammed was born. Now why would god inspire Moses to write down the entire story of his chosen tribe and then 2500 years later send another prophet to tell people "no, that version was wrong, here's how it should be."

I made that point earlier as well - that sequence of events is nonsensical given a loving and compassionate god, yet you chose to dance past that point also, like all the others I present to you in this debate.

Anyway, I'm bored with this. Your attitude and holier-than-thou righteousness is a truly horrible advert for Islam and I don't wish to continue this tedious and frustrating discussion.

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 05.31.2014, 09:03 AM.

05.31.2014, 08:53 AM

Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749

Ignoring everything .....

i am interested in the part where you said couple of month, how much time will you really have then, because then we can formulate a plan so then i can show how and why i came to these mindset of mine. and if its enough time then i wont mind redoing this with you again.

and in many cases now and before you tried to make a point by coming to my nature or behavior, its a thing what people do when they dont have good reasoning. They attack others , recently i followed some debates by the famous authors who advocate atheism. Their tone is quite similar they just say words out of nothing and then say he must be stupid bla bla bla then creates a fact that if he is stupid then he would have done that etc etc.

The reason i am not answering these is if i say something you wont believe it anyway. Because it will always include some insights of other things. So its best that you understand it yourself.

So please inform me when you have enough time..........

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 05.31.2014, 10:36 AM.

05.31.2014, 10:24 AM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

Here Saviour, I'll try your method of debate:

I noticed you avoided addressing any of my questions. Do you read my posts? Of course not, you're too lazy!

To understand why religion is a huge crock, you need to do a lot of studying and read lots of books (like I have). Get back to me once you've read the complete works of Richard Dawkins. Also you might want to brush up on your history and geography, because frankly if you think pre-Colombian civilizations would have been exposed to Islam, you're a nutter!

And I'm done.

__________________
I like tea!

05.31.2014, 10:35 AM