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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
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Yeah I'm on a roll here 
So this time we talk about mantras, or principles. What codes you live by, how your life is affected by them, etc. In the meantime we can have discussions on what others think of your principles.
As mentioned in the other thread, and really quite frequently on this board already, one of my favourite mantras is "Logic is a flaw in itself."
The reason is simple: Logic is never infallible because humans by nature make mistakes. They can be biased, or misinformed, or lack the information in the first place. Bias can come in the form of anything, from personal experience to mass media to peer pressure. And the biggest problem is that most of the time, the person isn't even aware of them having such a problem.
It also follows, in my own logic, that a debate is therefore incredibly inferior to a discussion. A debate has a fixed result that does not actually address nor settle the issue; a discussion is open-ended and allows both side to accept new information.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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 05.28.2014, 01:18 PM |
   
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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| 05.28.2014, 01:43 PM |
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Kazegami
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 08.19.07
Location: a world of pure imagination
Posts: 7025 |
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I suppose mine would be "Que será, será" ("what will be, will be" ) . It's so passive, haha. For me it just expresses that there's no point in worrying about the inevitable, you do what you have to do and you get on with life. Similarly: "What's done is done". There's also no point in worrying about what's passed; it can't be changed. See that spilt milk? You don't sit and cry about it, you get a cloth and you clean it up, and you move on.
I've been told I'm a pragmatist. I suppose this kind of thinking is what keeps me so relaxed about things.
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Post last edited by Kazegami on 05.28.2014, 02:09 PM.
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| 05.28.2014, 02:09 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller The reason is simple: Logic is never infallible because humans by nature make mistakes. They can be biased, or misinformed, or lack the information in the first place. Bias can come in the form of anything, from personal experience to mass media to peer pressure. And the biggest problem is that most of the time, the person isn't even aware of them having such a problem.
But that has nothing to do with logic. Logic is somewhat like mathenatics, in principle its infallible. You just have to understand it and not be confused by the loopholes that professional debaters can trap you with. These aren't so much logic as mind tricks.
I have very few principles in life any more having been through several grim episodes in the last few years. I "try never to talk about others behind their backs" and sadly I can "rarely trust religious people" because often discussing things with them is pointless and life is too short to waste on pointless debate. I'm also convinced that "cats make awesome companions".
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 05.28.2014, 03:32 PM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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My ones are these
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as committing the wrong.
@saddle
you know what the religious people think the same about non-religious people.
Is there any way to minimize this?i wonder
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 05.29.2014, 04:10 AM.
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| 05.29.2014, 04:03 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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Non-religious people are generaly open to arguments and discussions about certain subjects.
Non-religious people don't generally belong to a cult that openly supports harming other humans like many religions have done in the past and are currently doing now, as we speak.
You may not know this but several years ago I was a devout religious person. I "found God" in the year 2000. I turned my back on the whole crock of nonesense about 11 years later. I know how it feels to see both sides. Yes, there's some lovely religious people out there, I know many myself, but there are some crazy whack-jobs as well and you just cannot reason with these people.
The pressures of modern life and culture sends some people crazy (reference NCs recent feminist post and many mass killings in America and Britain) and religion has no part to play in those events but for organised, state-sanctioned murder there is no better tool than to have an entire population under the control of fundamentalist religious leaders.
Religion does harm. Non-religion does not.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 05.29.2014, 07:35 AM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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Man this is just like those old religion debate. No. i wont make it any worse.
I only stand for islam, i cant say for others.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
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| 05.29.2014, 08:19 AM |
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arren18
Administrator
Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 10665 |
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I can't say I agree, Saddles. While it's true that there have been and are plenty of problems with religion worldwide, I don't believe it's fair to generalise those who are religious, especially when you know from your own experience that many religious people are perfectly good. And it's also not really correct to say non-religion doesn't cause harm, when there have been all sorts of huge secular atrocities. Religion is a convenient excuse for doing terrible things, if you're in a position to convince people that you're right, but there are many more excuses too.
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| 05.29.2014, 10:20 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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quote:
Originally posted by arren18
many religious people are perfectly good.
Religion is a convenient excuse for doing terrible things, if you're in a position to convince people that you're right.
You're agreeing with me completely. This is exactly what I said.
Saviour - I know you won't join this debate because Islam's position is untenable; you know I'm right.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 05.29.2014, 10:35 AM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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Think as you like  , but from the experiences of last two year i know how you think.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
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| 05.29.2014, 11:49 AM |
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arren18
Administrator
Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 10665 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
Originally posted by arren18
many religious people are perfectly good.
Religion is a convenient excuse for doing terrible things, if you're in a position to convince people that you're right.
You're agreeing with me completely. This is exactly what I said.
But the rest of what I said was rather different from your viewpoint. It irks me a bit that you just deleted the parts of my post where there was criticism to respond to.
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| 05.29.2014, 12:03 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Non-religious people are generaly open to arguments and discussions about certain subjects.
Non-religious people don't generally belong to a cult that openly supports harming other humans like many religions have done in the past and are currently doing now, as we speak.
You may not know this but several years ago I was a devout religious person. I "found God" in the year 2000. I turned my back on the whole crock of nonesense about 11 years later. I know how it feels to see both sides. Yes, there's some lovely religious people out there, I know many myself, but there are some crazy whack-jobs as well and you just cannot reason with these people.
The pressures of modern life and culture sends some people crazy (reference NCs recent feminist post and many mass killings in America and Britain) and religion has no part to play in those events but for organised, state-sanctioned murder there is no better tool than to have an entire population under the control of fundamentalist religious leaders.
Religion does harm. Non-religion does not.
I, too, went through the religious/non-religious thing at about the same time, Saddles. And I agree that there are some people who are just so caught up in their religion that there is no room for anything else. It is the be all and end all of their lives. If this is their desire, then so be it, in my opinion. Go, do your thing, but harm no others while doing so. Unfortunately, many religious aren't satisfied with that. While I was religious, I had co-workers of another faith telling me that I will go to Hell unless I converted to their faith. Demanding that I hit the knees (in the public workplace) and ask for guidance. The thing was, if I confessed to something other than what they wanted, then I wasn't praying hard enough. I never understood their logic. We were supposedly believing in the one God, but to them, my God was different than theirs  I think that was the beginning of the end of religious life for me. It still took a few years and I don't regret those years as it gave me a bit of understanding of how those others felt.
I also feel that there are many religious people who are fine people and I am more than happy to mingle with them, as long as religion doesn't enter into the relationship.
Now, I am perfectly comfortable with my life as it is. If I have blessings or bad things happen in my life it is because of other people or myself, not some deity.
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Post last edited by husky51 on 05.29.2014, 12:38 PM.
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| 05.29.2014, 12:34 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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There are no bad religion. Just bad people. And lots of misunderstanding and misinterpretation, not because of religion, but because people are like that.
Also,
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
But that has nothing to do with logic. Logic is somewhat like mathenatics, in principle its infallible. You just have to understand it and not be confused by the loopholes that professional debaters can trap you with. These aren't so much logic as mind tricks.
I have very few principles in life any more having been through several grim episodes in the last few years. I "try never to talk about others behind their backs" and sadly I can "rarely trust religious people" because often discussing things with them is pointless and life is too short to waste on pointless debate. I'm also convinced that "cats make awesome companions".
a) Logic by principle is based on assumptions. Hence it cannot be infallible.
b) With the exception of the 2nd point, you sound like an old lady  No offence, honestly, but cats?
__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 05.29.2014, 12:52 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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Cats are ok, when taken on their own level. I've "owned" over 175 cats in my lifetime and enjoyed them all, for the most part. They would come into my life, be named and loved, and then they would leave, some after a short time, others after a lifetime. But I've also enjoyed the dogs, rats, snakes, & guinea pigs (Rosie had two little Guinea Pigs and lived beyond 5 years, which is unusual for a Guinea Pig)(not porcine, btw)
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Post last edited by husky51 on 05.29.2014, 01:10 PM.
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| 05.29.2014, 01:09 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
There are no bad religion. Just bad people.
Don't be silly, that's a ridiculous statement. Religion is made up of the people who believe it. The belivers ARE the religion. How can a religion exist if people don't beleive it? Religion cannot exist without people, just like a wall can't exist without a bricklayer. Bad practitioners or mistaken beleivers or fundamentalists = bad religion. You're not telling me that without the conflict between Islam and Christianity (and within Christianity and within Islam) there would still have been the Crusades, the Inquisition, witches and bishops burned at the stake, terrible wars between Islamic sects, 9/11, 7/7, and etc, etc, ad nauseum.
quote:
a) Logic by principle is based on assumptions. Hence it cannot be infallible.
Logic is based on rules, and laws like mathematics and physics, not on assumptions. Assumptions are what a person believes. Logic isn't made up of beliefs, but of facts.
Never had a cat as a pet?
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 05.29.2014, 01:31 PM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Religion is made up of the people who believe it. The belivers ARE the religion. How can a religion exist if people don't beleive it?
Thats is not correct.
It does not matter to god if there are believers or not. so religion can exist without believers. It is not the people that is religion but the belief.
The sole purpose of religion is to acknowledge God and thereby worshiping him.
If everyone just stops that then the universe will come to an end.This last statement is not a fact its a belief , only testable when this scenario happens. Not probably in our lifetime.
and that you said mathematics is infallible that is probably not correct in its entirety. A quite long discussion going on between Mush and me about that if mathematics is truly universal truth. It is not very easy subject.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 05.29.2014, 02:44 PM.
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| 05.29.2014, 02:42 PM |
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arren18
Administrator
Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 10665 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
There are no bad religion. Just bad people.
Don't be silly, that's a ridiculous statement. Religion is made up of the people who believe it. The belivers ARE the religion.
But then even by that argument, the only bad religions are the most extreme sects, where the members by definition all believe in terrible things. No large religion with diverse membership can fit that description.
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| 05.29.2014, 09:53 PM |
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Orphic Okapi
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Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335 |
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
It does not matter to god if there are believers or not. so religion can exist without believers. It is not the people that is religion but the belief.
What you're trying to say, I think, is that God can exist without believers. Well, sure. Religion and God are not the same thing, though; if they were identical, interchangeable concepts, there would be only one religion, right? (According to your own monotheistic religious beliefs.) But there are thousands of religions, because religion is a belief, and belief cannot exist without believers, i.e. human beings. Furthermore you claim that "the sole purpose of religion is to acknowledge God," but if no one existed, no one could acknowledge God.
In short: Yes, God could exist without believers. Religion, however, could not.
If God doesn't care if he has believers . . . then why did he make people?
quote:
But then even by that argument, the only bad religions are the most extreme sects, where the members by definition all believe in terrible things. No large religion with diverse membership can fit that description.
If religions can be judged by the actions of their believers, every single one of them is bad, or has been bad historically. Just because Christians are for the most part peaceable now doesn't mean Christian history isn't rife with horrific violence.
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| 05.30.2014, 12:15 AM |
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Tea Master Tall
Totoro
Registration Date: 04.01.07
Location: United States
Posts: 730 |
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I think that the problem is close-mindedness. Some people just use the "There is no God" excuse to justify doing bad stuff. Some people use their religion as an excuse for causing unnecessary pain. However, I believe that if there is hypothetically speaking, a benevolent God, that he would not leave humans completely in the dark on right or wrong - that he would give us some way to internally judge the difference. For me, I think that our morals derive from our ability to question things.
I find it rather ridiculous that all religious fundamentalists have to take their book's word for everything, as well as when people say stuff like "God works in mysterious ways," and then they adhere to a fairly set-in-stone perception of god. I think that if there IS a god he is probably not the conventional good guy/hero. And if there is to be a benevolent god, he cannot be all powerful. And what's the point of humanizing God? If god is "mysterious" then he can't be human, because we know ourselves too well. The existence of an alien blob of goo is a more convincing argument to me than a human-like god. Scientists are looking for explanations to the universe by using their deductive reasoning. (Some) Religious people think that all the answers are found in committing to faith/faith practices. Though one could argue that it is harder to pray and have faith than to use the full extent of their logic, I think that it takes more effort to learn new things than to just keep trying to find ways to see/interpret something you've already learned. I guess I'm an idealist in that, I really think the whole universe would just be a better place without pain, violence, bigotry, suffering, etc. And that if "GOD" is capable of making humans perceive a completely screwed up world as a beautiful one, he/she/it sure as hell could make us perceive a PERFECT world the same way. "God" didn't have any good reason to give us free will, unless he WANTED us to mess up the earth. When I think about free will I am not inspired in a way that makes me want to say "oh, how beautiful". Instead, I think what the hell was that for? You do not need pain to appreciate happiness - Think about it. When you were a kid and didn't know half the things that you know now, you were probably a lot happier. It kind of depends. If you grew up in a terrible situation, you probably weren't happy. But, then if you found happiness later in life, it would be greatly appreciated, because pain SUCKS so much. NOT because you enjoyed going through the rough parts, who would? I perceive good and bad as separate forces that are simply mixed together in the universe. I think that good is a more unclear subject than bad. It's pretty damn evident that almost everything's trying to kill us, including ourselves. However, if one believes in the existence of true love/goodness in the universe and that a rather modest fragment of it is found in humans - the question remains, how did humans get it? Well, if there's some benevolent God out there, I'm prepared for proof of it.
But, thus far, there isn't scientific proof for the existence of any God, so I don't believe in one. Of course, it all depends on your definition of god, because you could find the answer to the universe and maybe it's a box of macaroni noodles. The word God is defined as: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. (And is always referred to as a guy in Christianity, which does nothing but attach sexist connotations to the word). This definition would be rendered irrelevant if we found God; why not settle for mac and cheese???
I'm not saying I have all the answers... God/heaven/hell could very well exist. There is the possibility. And if God does exist, and Heaven does that sucks, and I will go to hell along with everyone else who failed to be perfect in His eyes ( even though God made them imperfect). I mean, it wouldn't make God any less of an asshole if hell existed. So, I'd still be right about something.
As far as principles go, I live by similar ones to those of major religions. I find truth in the core principles of Compassion, Empathy, Love, Faith, Forgiveness, etc. as found in Christianity for example, at least in a general sense. For me, there's just too much baggage along with those principles in religious books - they're riddled with contradictions. If you want to believe in God, fine. But, I'll end with: "God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance." - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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| 05.30.2014, 12:35 AM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
It does not matter to god if there are believers or not. so religion can exist without believers. It is not the people that is religion but the belief.
What you're trying to say, I think, is that God can exist without believers. Well, sure. Religion and God are not the same thing, though; if they were identical, interchangeable concepts, there would be only one religion, right? (According to your own monotheistic religious beliefs.)
and
If God doesn't care if he has believers . . . then why did he make people?
You are quite right in the first paragraph, i AM saying there is only one religion. Ever since the birth of human kind. And that is Islam. Every prophet[judio-cristian-islam] preached the same thing, although the rules were different according to the systems of that timeline. But the belief was exactly the same. I believe what Musa[pbuh](Moses),Isa[pbuh](jesus),Mohammad[pbuh] and all the other prophets taught. People [bad people according to roar] changed these belief and turned them into some thing different that was profitable to them. And thats why we have so many religions. There was only one religion thats why there is soo many similarities between religions. you need to be quite naive not to understand that. Ofcourse you can interpret it any way you like but i ask you one question do you have what it takes to really experiment a true religion top to bottom in yourself. And lose the freedom that you have without one. it is a quite big implication.
As i always said a debate for the debates sake is not worth my time. so i wont do it anymore.
and
this second para is linked to my first answer, i dont think you have the guts, the motivation , the time or the energy to find this answer. Why bother??
@Tea Master Tall
You can only understand when you die if you really feel like going to hell. I dont think you have suffered from any kind of really bad experience, bad experience is bad and hell is extremely bad.
_----------------------------------------------------------------------------------_
But all these things are untestable and thus why i try not to write them as statements but as this is not a debate but merely a chit-chat i can be a bit less serious about it.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 05.30.2014, 01:52 AM.
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| 05.30.2014, 01:49 AM |
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