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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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 11.06.2014, 09:12 PM |
   
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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| 11.06.2014, 09:21 PM |
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foreignfilmfreak
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location: Japan
Posts: 7589 |
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It's cool that you guys want to talk about this.  I find toxic masculinity to be quite interesting.
I became interested in masculinity when dating my ex-boyfriend. My ex was very, well, obsessed with being seen as masculine. As I come from a small, predominantly white town with little acceptance of the tiniest bit of deviance from what is seen as the "norm", my ex experienced difficulties with fitting in and being treated equally by other males. Even one of our mutual friends almost refused to be seen at all in public with my ex because of the way my ex dressed and wore his hair because he was afraid of being labeled as "gay". I was pretty disappointed to hear this story. People criticized my ex for not being the hyper masculine guy they thought he should be.
He came interested in pick up culture when we were dating. I found it pretty odd how interested he was in learning how to date girls, and we'd watch the programs on pick up culture together. I felt sort of uncomfortable and didn't really understand his need for that sort of program. I told one of my guy friend's about it and he didn't understand why a guy in a relationship needed to look into that. More than just pick up culture, he changed his clothes. He grew out scraggly facial hair so as to be more masculine looking. He changed his interests to be seen as more masculine.
And most of all, he wanted to change me. He wanted me to wear tight clothes, criticizing my clothes for even being slightly larger than my actual size. He wanted my hair long because he thought it was the only way to be seen as feminine (part of the reason I chopped it off). He wanted guys to get jealous of him. He wanted me to become a Catholic, which really really bugged me because I had told him I am fine with involving myself in his religion and learning about it but have no desire to join a religion and that I would never be a religious person. He made casual jokes about my whiteness and how he wished I was Filipina (aka he made pretty creepy assumptions of Filipinas, like that they were all religious, sweet, demure, etc. Even though he was Filipino, I was pretty grossed out). The tone he talked to me in gradually changed. I just drew the straw when he said "Stop being such a b****" "Why do women have to be this way?".
His toxic masculinity hurt me.
I'm happy to be with someone who realizes the problem with this. Someone who acknowledges the very deep problems I still currently face due to my toxic relationship. There's a lot more than just this, but these are just some things.
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| 11.06.2014, 11:47 PM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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I dont like this kind of masculinity.
Although i fear there are many traits within me.
I think the reason is i dont know much about girls.
i also raised my sister upto a 3 and been involved in raising two cousins.
But i fail to understand their psychology. Such as my sister who is now 9 , wants to buy cosmetic items(lipstick gloss bla bla). But i have for a couple of time stopped my father buying those cause she already has some. same for my cousins.
These small incidents makes me understand there is a practical difference between male and female.
But you guys will just roar on me mentioning the word "girliness"
its a valid word.
So would i want to change how females are, definitely not. But from my very very little knowledge i understand it is hard to understand a girl sometimes, they are sensitive. and who are not, are considered not girly.(this is a bad argument, but thats the truth) Every person has some issues, i need to work on those to be a better person. I think women cant accept that when this kind of comment comes from men. Definitely what NC said in highlights counts I AM speaking from my point , i dont know how the other person feels. But at the same time which is preety obvious to girls might be hugely irritating for boys.(gossip etc)
conclusion i am confused. It started when three girls here argued about girls dressing for themselves and other debates i started. Its preety clear that i can not draw a line without hurting anyone's feeling. One way possible to minimize this division(theoritical) is to socialize, marriage can be an option. It will be interesting to know if men becomes more masculine , if women understand problems in a male's thinking strategy after marriage. I DO think male want to pressure women in all the cases but not all the pressure coming to a girl might be related to the male being masculine.
The possibilities are vast. we all know some steriotypical notions about these things. But to know the truth the study has to be done being fully considerate about the other. But that data doesnot exist.
I just want someone to do that.
Thanks for reading.
NB: due my wordings its obvious that i might have hurt somebody. sorry is not enough but i really did not mean it. And not enough time to write some more points.
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Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
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| 11.07.2014, 05:38 AM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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saviour, I have been around and mingled with girls and women ALL my life and the man who says he 'understands women' is a liar, or at the very least, stretching the truth.
When I speak about women, I do not use the term to include ALL women, for that would be a generality and you can't do that with men or women.
IMO, the best that a man can do is to get to know a woman and learn from her and TRY to understand THAT woman and what makes her tick. Her likes, dislikes, etc. Again, IMO, most women are emotional creatures, more so than men and I don't know if this is a physiological trait because of the generally nurturing aspect of womanhood or not, I just don't know that much about the subject in general. The point is, EVERY woman is different, just as every man is different.
I am going to have to look up this term "toxic masculinity" and see just what it is about. I THINK I know, but I need to be sure. If it is what I think it is referring to, then to understand it in full, requires an idea of what triggers this feeling. Does it come from within? Environment? Peer pressure (which could be a part of the environment)?
I am going to back off for the moment and let see what others think of this subject... while I look it up and do other things myself...
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| 11.07.2014, 10:44 AM |
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Nausicaa_Cat
Baron
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location:
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I'm glad this all interests you ^^
To make it clear for everybody, here is a fairly neat and short description of what is meant by toxic masculinity:
"We’re talking about how our society indoctrinates boys from a young age to believe they can’t share their feelings, that they’re not allowed to cry, that they have to shut up and man up, that it’s okay to use violence as a way to express pain, but it’s not okay to ask for help. We’re talking about how this version of masculinity, of what it means to be a man, is toxic. We’re talking about how the patriarchy hurts men. This discussion is centered on how we can improve society so that boys and men don’t have to endure this box that society has put them in which causes some men to snap, lash out, and hurt others."
So in its essence, toxic masculinity is the concept that within patriarchal society, men are intensely discouraged from a young age to participate in anything perceived as 'feminine', including healthy expression of feelings and emotions. This can/often results in stunted emotional growth, with men using other outlets such as violence towards others or themselves.
Here is a link to a trailer for a documentary on the topic which should summarise it well:
Trailer
And here is a recent campaign by #VogueEmpower that depicts the problem in quite a touching and beautifully shot way:
Start With the Boys
It is quite likely, Saddles/Husky that strong female influences within your life have enabled you to build up a stronger resistance to this kind of social engineering and you're probably healthier people for it.
It's clear to see in FFF's description of the transformation her ex went through how problematic it is that our society forces these values on men, until they become increasingly controlling of not only themselves but how they equally perceive 'femininity'.
Post last edited by Nausicaa_Cat on 11.07.2014, 01:17 PM.
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| 11.07.2014, 01:17 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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Thanks for starting this thread Husky. Although I never knew of the term itself, 'toxic masculinity' has been in my mind all my life, right from my early teens - though of course I wasn't able to grasp the concept then.
When I was a child and then a teenager I would often be happy amusing myself with things like writing, drawing, and other creative crafts such as modelling miniature railways, painting model soldiers and looking after a vegetable patch my mother allocated to me in our family garden.
As a teenager I was never interested in the 'physical' team sports (every boy around me seemed to be into football), nor fast cars and similar 'masculine' subjects.
I have never been involved in a fight, except for a couple of minor scuffles as a child and the idea of resolving your differences with physical violence seems completely alien and pointless to me, as well as obviously hurtful to both parties.
I cry often at the ends of emotionally charged films, TV series and books. News of tragic events in the world often move me to tears and anger.
I probably have in me, as I mentioned before, some feminine traits. I'll confess now to being mildly bisexual; I had one male/male sexual encounter when I was younger and now, after the failure of my marriage and having the usual human needs for companionship, find it a subject I'm turning my thoughts to more and more.
Why not have a loving, supporting companionship relationship with a male as a female?
But as to the toxicity of this mindset, I agree. I find it rather sad and pathetic to see grown men having a misogynistic attitude or using extremely foul language because its 'manly' or relying on violence as a normal process of argument resolution. It strikes me as the way our ancestors behaved millions of years ago and we should have put those traits behind us in the society we have today and which we like to call advanced.
It seems we're attempting to seek equality in many things, for women, for LGBT people, for ethnic minorities, for different religious faiths, but men themselves seem the most obstinate in holding onto the idea that its girly to cry or weak to back down from a physical encounter. I can only assume that the traits of the male as hunter-provider from millions of years ago are still working strongly in the male psyche and when the only hunter-providing he can do is go to IKEA and master the putting together of a shelving unit, many men try to hold onto the remnants of what they see as their proper role using other means.
Much sports crowd violence and anti-social behaviour is part of this; the tribal warrior is still buried there not far below the surface and he is exposed when inhibitions are lowered by alcohol and the supportive noises of other warrior-males around him.
I also see this behaviour at my new place of work which is a warehouse (I am a van driver most of the day and happiest when out on the road alone) and some of the behaviours and words the men in the warehouse use I can only describe as 'primitive'. I've been a white-collar worker all my life and moved in middle class circles. I thought sexism, racism and homophobia were under control and trending downwards in British society. A change in my fortunes this last 18 months or so has exposed me to a blue-collar working environment and I've discovered that all those 'isms' and many more besides are alive and well in male working class Britain. It's been a rather unhappy and depressing discovery. I never realised I was trapped in a different world. I go into places where nude girls on calendars adorning the walls are still 'normal' and men ask each other "Did you give the missus one this weekend" as an opening line of conversation on a Monday morning.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.08.2014, 07:25 AM.
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| 11.08.2014, 07:21 AM |
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foreignfilmfreak
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location: Japan
Posts: 7589 |
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I think the working environment has to do with class structure, Saddles. I come from a blue collar area so all of things are more rampant there than anywhere else I've been to yet. My ex was also a blue collar worker, fixing nets in a factory 12 hours a day for just above minimum wage. Immigrant workers and women usually face the most problems in the work place. If anyone finds out you're LGBT, you're pretty much outcasted. Which effing sucks. Although there are beginning to be those more vocal about themselves and their situation. Men have the most problems coming out as gay to people, where they're threatened to be beaten up over it. The few who have come out get very visibly and verbally upset over people not understanding, over the threats, etc. They don't want to stand for that BS anymore and/or lie to themselves and others and bash gay people just because they don't want people to find out about them. Actually, a guy I know was very upset over people saying stuff like "It's okay to be straight" and him saying that they have no idea what it's like to be oppressed because of his sexual orientation. It sucks. Someone tore down my sister's friend's LGBTQ posters on her locker (she's the class present + LGBTQ president), to which she responded by posting up more and more posters and will keep doing so if they tear down them again.
There's so much racism, which is probably why I've experienced more in my relationships than others have simply because of the area I live in back home. Working class is definitely associated with it, not to put down the working class since that's the background I come from. It's all those -isms that make me want to leave so desperately. But it would mean leaving my whole family behind. Yet I can't handle the toxicity of that environment. I love to learn about the class system. It's a prevalent theme in Canadian literature, particularly from writers on my side of the country. Rough sports are also very popular and very dangerous to play because people aren't afraid to tear you apart, especially if they have a thing against you. I'm not even going to delve into sexism because there's so much of it, it just gets me extremely upset.
Men always threaten to beat each other up, and so do women. There's this endless circle of violence. It's always seemed so silly to me. I'm kind of on the borderline of working class background since the majority of my family is, but my mother is a teacher. I didn't like the upper middle class people ridiculing the working class people, but in the small area it's impossible. They don't seem to understand how the system has played out.
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| 11.08.2014, 10:32 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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One wonders why middle class/white collar people generally are more accepting of the social changes that have become the norm in western society in the last -oh- 25 years... when blue collar/working class people (again, generally) do not seem to have moved forwards at all from the 1950s-60s level of attitude.
I suppose it has to be down to education, largely.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 11.08.2014, 10:41 AM |
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arren18
Administrator
Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 10665 |
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Education definitely plays a part. Largely, such issues are taken seriously due to the presence of academic literature and the surrounding discourse. That means that primarily middle-class people are producing ideas, directed at other primarily middle-class people. In such a context it's not so strange for people of the middle class who consider themselves "enlightened" to look down on the working classes holding on to tradition. I would argue that that perpetuates the problem, because caring about stuff then seems pretentious to many working-class people.
Another point I'd make is that for the working classes, upholding traditional values is a way to survive when resources are low. For the middle and upper classes, spending money on any interests is no big deal; on the other hand if you don't have a lot, it's more utilitarian to follow proscribed roles where you know what you need and how to go about things. Therefore, I think that helps to explain why diverging from established norms is so difficult in such an environment.
Also, bigotry is most certainly alive among the more well-off too. Example 1: today I was in Waitrose and noted that the horrible, horrible Daily Mail seemed worryingly popular. Example 2: the Tories.
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| 11.08.2014, 01:12 PM |
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foreignfilmfreak
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location: Japan
Posts: 7589 |
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Yo, remembered this thread.
So, toxic masculinity.... At a university I nearly decided to attend there's been a lot of hot water lately because of a group of students on Facebook write hate posts towards their female classmates and who they want to knock out or rape or have hate sex with. All the details aren't totally clear but just the few details that have been released are purely disgusting. The university has failed to act on expelling the students or really do much about the matter.
What's more disturbing is people saying this is "normal" for men to think and that they had all the right in the world to create a group online about this stuff. What??? If any of my guy friends made jokes like this or something with one another I'd be extremely appalled. Who just casually sits around friends and make rape jokes or talk about who you'd want to do that to? It's far different than just talking to each other about who you'd want to have sex with. Far far different. Yet people are claiming that there are too many "man-hating feminists" upset over this.
The evidence is right there. ._. Chances are someone heard about what was going on in the group and joined and reported them. They used their university name. These aren't undergrad students either. They're men completing their post grad education in their later twenties. They're smart enough that they should have realized creating and posting in such a group would potentially screw them over, private or not. They used their own facebook accounts. They used their school name. The group may have been private but it was highly unlikely to go unnoticed forever. Someone would have found out.
It's just kind of scary seeing people defend these men and saying they're just boys or kids. Uh, these men are old enough to be fathers and have an established career nearly. They're old enough to do anything they want and be seen as an adult. But they're claiming that their lives shouldn't be ruined over this, that it was "harmless" (they posted names and photos of classmates they wished to do things to), that they'll need therapy to get over this. Also, haven't we come to realize how downright creepy and wrong rape jokes are? If we haven't, perhaps we should reevaluate why we don't find it wrong. I've personally never felt comfortable when anyone made a rape joke. It doesn't sit well or seem entirely innocent to me.
Of course, most people realize it's wrong and weird. I personally hope none of my male friends think this way. o_O It's just really weird to me that there's still quite a few defending these men on what they did. And then saying it would be normal conversation at the bar or on their couch. What? Am I just strange for thinking that how those people are thinking is sort of... creepy??
EDIT: Should add that these guys are entering a professional field to be doctors and that you don't have to necessarily align yourself with being a feminist to realize that making rape jokes about your classmates is probably not the best idea and is disgusting.
Post last edited by foreignfilmfreak on 01.04.2015, 06:11 PM.
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| 01.04.2015, 06:03 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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Do you know what I would do? Expose this group to a local paper or TV channel. Perhaps even a national if they'll listen.
__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 01.04.2015, 06:40 PM |
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foreignfilmfreak
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location: Japan
Posts: 7589 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Do you know what I would do? Expose this group to a local paper or TV channel. Perhaps even a national if they'll listen.
Someone already did that. It's in the national news here in Canada. It's a pretty big deal and everyone I know has been disgusted that these guys would do that. I just don't know all the details since they haven't been totally exposed (I think? I'm not sure if the group was deleted or not).
The university president hasn't made a decision on what to do and the method he's using right now is upsetting the public. They're demanding he step down. The professors are acting now to bring the problem more forward. Names of those in the group have yet to be disclosed to the public but we know the number of them. People seem to think they're doing nothing wrong but there's quite a few laws they broke (cyber bullying, intent to harm, etc.).
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| 01.04.2015, 07:46 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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| 01.04.2015, 08:09 PM |
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potatotarzan
Kodama
Registration Date: 01.02.15
Location: The N-Field
Posts: 33 |
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quote:
I have always felt that despite being male I have many female traits and female feelings (whatever that may be... but I just do). I've never been what I think of as a 'masculine' male and many typical male subjects, pastimes and habits hold no interest for me. Am I a girly guy? I am not sure. Maybe.
This very much applies to me as well. (I came close to saying almost the exact same thing in the introductions thread.)
I very much dislike "masculinity," to the point where I have occasionally thought about purposely adopting stereotypical external "female" features, in an attempt to fight against our culture's assumptions. But I haven't... For one thing, I find the particulars unappealing: Shaving is a pain; when you have long hair you have to keep it from getting tangled; I've never liked make-up; etc., etc. Plus, I might send the message that I'm gay or transgender or something, which I'm not. And finally because... it would draw attention to myself, something I don't enjoy.
In the end, it mostly just comes down to me reading shojo manga.  (Well, no, there's a bit more to it than that, but still...)
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| 01.04.2015, 09:30 PM |
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foreignfilmfreak
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location: Japan
Posts: 7589 |
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Me too. I just found an article detailing what has been said and how long this group has existed for. It's..... appalling. Judging from what they've posted, it wasn't just them who knew about this secret group. They named classmates and also complained about women. Like, a lot. The maturity level for a group of doctorate students wasn't very high with this group... Also congrats to the guy who reported on them for this crap. They were seriously mad that someone reported them. Probably should have thought of that one before making the stupid group.
Also, the school failed to notify the female students that they had been talked about in this group. It existed for around four years. Four years!! 
I think that by tomorrow there will be some sort of conclusion on the matter as they postponed exams to this month. It will be interesting to see what repercussions will be done and how students may retaliate. This isn't a small university either and it is widely recognized. If they don't do something about the male students involved it will forever ruin their brand, the careers of any of their uninvolved male students in that program graduating this year, and the public isn't going to trust them. The students might have had money to get this far in their schooling but something has to be done.
I'm very interested in what goes on in universities with such cases. We haven't had something this damaging occur at my university that I know of. We talk about these cases in my gender studies courses. Although no one may have been directly harmed as a result, this group was far from innocent in their intentions. It was a stupid, costly move. They might be scared now but they should have realized. They're old enough and well educated to realize their group was extremely stupid to make. Ugh, it makes me mad and disgusted. haha I feel sorry for the uninvolved male classmates who may have to endure being unable to work in their field if nothing is done and the students' identities remain anonymous.
There's also another worry is that if these students are provided their license and cannot get a job in Canada that they might work overseas. Ugh, that just makes me sick. :S
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| 01.04.2015, 10:03 PM |
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