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Roarkiller
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It just occurred to me, while looking at my anime collection, that shows we can consider as a classic or a masterpiece are getting decidedly rare, if not non-existent. I don't mean just anime but almost all forms of entertainment. The last anime to be considered a masterpiece was probably Spirited Away in 2001, while the last anime to receive anywhere near immortal cult status was probably Cardcaptor Sakura (98-2000) if I recall. And I'm not aware of any great musicals since Cats.
I am of the opinion that with the rapid churning of large number of titles, entertainment is fast losing its art status and more a factory production. No show, eastern or western, has been able to survive even half a decade without disappearing to obscurity in one way or another.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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 08.12.2015, 09:15 AM |
   
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Saddletank
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Doesn't it take a while before a piece of music/movie/novel etc is considered a classic?
I personally think Haruhi is a classic anime simply because it was so fresh, with new ideas, new types of characters that later became tropes (like moe). The last movie was 2009 IIRC, so only 6 years ago.
I also feel that Sky Crawlers was or deserves to be a classic - 2008.
No, I don't think classics are dead.
EDIT: Might we, as a community, make a list of what we think are classic anime (series/movies) without coming to blows? There are probably a dozen titles easily that are indisputable classics and we might even add two dozen more with varying levels of agreement.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 08.12.2015, 09:51 AM.
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| 08.12.2015, 09:48 AM |
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arren18
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Doesn't it take a while before a piece of music/movie/novel etc is considered a classic?
This is exactly what I was going to say. I've never liked when reviewers, etc call things "instant classics", because to my mind that misses the point of what we mean by "classic". So I would say the reason we don't have many recent classics is because they haven't had the chance to stand the test of time yet - or alternatively, viewing something as a classic means recognising it was quite a long time ago, and we don't always want to recognise that if we imagine it being recent.
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Post last edited by arren18 on 08.12.2015, 12:26 PM.
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| 08.12.2015, 12:25 PM |
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Nausicaa_Cat
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I would agree that it's impossible to really refer to anything recent as a 'classic', since we have no idea how it's going to age and whether it'll go on to take cult-status etc.
It's difficult to say really - but Paprika for example, which was 2006 is probably deserving of a 'classic' status, but even that feels too recent to really call it that.
As far as 'musicals' go though Roar, there are lots of great musicals since Cats! Off the top of my head I would say Jersey Boys will come to be considered a 'classic'. From my understanding Matilda as well is meant to be fairly fantastic.
Post last edited by Nausicaa_Cat on 08.12.2015, 02:08 PM.
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| 08.12.2015, 02:07 PM |
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saviour2012
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The suggestions you guys gave to me can be starting place for this.
I do not think that classics need to be old. When i think about hollywood classics i think Fight Club, Bourne Trilogy, Matrix, Batman Series(By Christopher Nolan). There are ofcourse very old ones like godfather, twelve angry men. Nostalgia may be a reason why people tend to think old ones are better but it is not always the case in my opinion.
And between 1990 to 2000 it was actually a golden time for animation industry, because new techniques[ like cgi, graphics tablet etc] enabled many people who were not considered artist to enter the scene. So a lot of creative shows were created in this time.
now lets come to anime, following the internet discussions what i have found that there are roughly two groups. one group thinks anime is like anyother artform has good quality and bad quality items[films, series etc]. Most of them are very annoyed by the fanservice provided in many anime. And the other group is called otaku(which a very deregetory and disrespectful word). They are similar to what is called fanatics. They fantasize about many of the aspects of anime, specially characters. And in many place these people are called weeaboos, weebs etc. There are also some even darker sides of this culture(e.g. waifu, a social/psycological illness).
Now lets get back to what roar said
quote:
I am of the opinion that with the rapid churning of large number of titles, entertainment is fast losing its art status and more a factory production. No show, eastern or western, has been able to survive even half a decade without disappearing to obscurity in one way or another.
i think what roar said is to the point. Let us see a research done by mitsubishi
quote:
* The total gross output in Japan arising as a result of the film and television industry is approximately 5,436.4 billion Yen ($68.0b) for the direct impact, and 11,664.2 billion Yen ($145.9b) for the total contribution including indirect/ induced impact.
* The total value added to the Japanese economy in 2011 from film and television industry is approximately 2,491.2 billion Yen ($31.2b) for the direct impact, and 5,770.1billion Yen ($72.2b) for the total contribution including indirect/induced impact.
* The labor income in Japan generated as a result of film and television industry is 1058.6billion Yen ($13.2b) for the direct impact, and 2,654.5 billion Yen ($331.9b) for the total contribution including indirect/ induced impact.
* The total value added for the film and television industry accounts for 0.53% of GDP3 for the direct impact, 1.23% for the total contribution. The former is larger than the automobile manufacturing industry (excl. auto-parts industry) which accounts for 0.49% of GDP in 2011.
* The total employment created in Japan as a result of film and television industry is estimated to be 88,569 for the direct impact, and 264,707, for the total contribution including indirect/ induced impact, for full time equivalent (FTE) positions.
the study said in the year 2016 the market should expand about CAGR(compound annual growth rate) 1.5% approx 7-8% in direct rate. Now if you look at it. you will see that majority of the money is from induced sources. Now one source is Advertising Revenue another is Merchandising.
Majority of this income comes from terrestrial broadcast(TV) of which majority is Anime. As a market policy most of the anime needs to have that sexual titillation to get a fair share of that otaku market [and for your information it is almost all over the globe, specially due to the internet marketing policies taken by the companies]
So why modern anime dont get wide recognition. I think you should ask yourself should a porn get oscar. OK, dont growl on me. What i am trying to say that most modern anime is so sexualized that for almost all people it has become something like a guilty pleasure. You cant talk about it.
And truth to be told Hollywood is not different, almost every industry is right now trying to squeeze money from people any way possible. One prime example is the super hero movies, transformer movies.
Still there will be always some special people who can do amazing things. Example Christopher Nolan turned a whole superhero thing into a psychological testbed. Hayao Miyazaki tried overwhelm the length of human imagination. But they are both accomplished people. And they are less. So are classics.
However as anime is a very tightly coupled industry[TV, Home Video, Merchandise, Costume etc], i think the producers can not think leaving its core audience[otaku]. So it is very unlikely that new anime will become classics unless the general population thinks that anime no matter how it is made is acceptable. [which i believe is a bit hard cause although porn is accepted it is still porn so anime will be anime].
Thank for reading the long post. Feel free to correct me where you think i am wrong. [as it is not a personal opinion, rather opinion based on facts]
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@NC
I think Millennium Actress Was much much better. All three movies(Millennium Actress, Paprika and Tokyo Grandfather) were considered good but that one has more punch than Paprika.
It makes me think another question, what is a classic art form(movie, anime or art)?
what i have found from internet
a classic film is one that maintains its appeal through the generations; one that my parents found interesting, I find interesting and the younger generation finds interesting.
and these qualities
1) Great dialogue - special effects will look outdated at some point, and action is just eye candy, where great dialogue and the relationship between characters stays with you, as do the lines and quotes that struck you throughout the art form
2) Stands the test of time - is popular with the generation after the one that first watched it, and the one after that. Art form that are believable, well written and acted and meet criteria #1 will be popular for decades and with different age ranges.
3) Offer some kind of revealing or profound commentary on the subject of the film or the time frame in which it was made, so that the movie becomes more than just a movie, but a reflection of society as well.
So can a fantasy film be a classic, definitely Totoro being an example. But i think without that point three a film can not be a classic. I think that is the reason why people remembers it cause it gives them some form of revelation of themselves.
But Anime [most of it, if not all] is not made for that reason. So it is very hard for a anime to be classic.
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Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
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its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 08.13.2015, 01:21 PM.
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| 08.13.2015, 01:17 PM |
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arren18
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I'll try and go through point by point. There are some points where I disagree and some where I just don't quite see what you're getting at.
quote:
And between 1990 to 2000 it was actually a golden time for animation industry, because new techniques[ like cgi, graphics tablet etc] enabled many people who were not considered artist to enter the scene. So a lot of creative shows were created in this time.
What do you mean by this? Is this the animation industry in general, or specifically in Japan? What kind of people actually entered the scene and by what means?
quote:
now lets come to anime, following the internet discussions what i have found that there are roughly two groups. one group thinks anime is like anyother artform has good quality and bad quality items[films, series etc]. Most of them are very annoyed by the fanservice provided in many anime. And the other group is called otaku(which a very deregetory and disrespectful word). They are similar to what is called fanatics. They fantasize about many of the aspects of anime, specially characters. And in many place these people are called weeaboos, weebs etc. There are also some even darker sides of this culture(e.g. waifu, a social/psycological illness).
This is quite specific to western anime fans. There are indeed many people who are troubled by the existence of fanservice in anime, which has been there since the 60s or 70s. "Otaku" is a Japanese term for enthusiastic fans (not necessarily of anime), which has over time been used in many different ways by different people. In my view there is sufficient evidence to say that popular attitudes towards otaku in Japan have improved in this millennium. Outside of Japan, there is a divide between people who use the word with pride and those who use it as an insult. Those who consider it an insult (in English) seem to be in the majority right now.
"Weeaboo" and "weeb" are exclusively western terms, as they also indicate that the person has an obsession with Japan in general. Meanwhile, the suggestion that "waifu" indicates some kind of illness is completely ridiculous. It's a joke that comes from a line in Azumanga Daioh that's used to refer to characters that a fan is especially fond of.
Roar's point is interesting. It could definitely be argued that the hugely increased production of TV/film entertainment makes it harder to spot things that are truly special, as there is just so much rubbish to get through. However, if we consider time to be an important factor in regarding something as "classic", it's hard to say right now whether it really prevents classics from being made. Also, as there is so much out there, even when we do decide on modern classics, they may seem less significant if they make up a lower proportion of entertainment in general. In basic numbers however, there may indeed be just as many classics as there ever was.
quote:
Majority of this income comes from terrestrial broadcast(TV) of which majority is Anime.
Maybe I've misunderstood you, but you seem to be saying that anime makes up a significant amount of Japanese television. This is inaccurate. If it isn't made for children, a lot of it airs late at night, and makes very little money. A major reason for poor animation quality in anime is that studios simply can't afford to pay enough staff to make it high-quality. DVD/blu-ray and merchandise sales are how anime generally makes money.
quote:
What i am trying to say that most modern anime is so sexualized that for almost all people it has become something like a guilty pleasure.
Why are you so sure that sexualisation in anime is a modern issue? Could this be another issue of quantity? That is, when there's so much more overall, it looks like there's more sexy anime than ever before? Because I would argue that it's been around for a long time, and even in some that are certainly considered classics there's a fair bit of fanservice - something which might nowadays prevent something from being acclaimed, at least among western audiences.
quote:
[as it is not a personal opinion, rather opinion based on facts]
This point is a bit of an aside, but I seem to remember you saying something like this before, in another debate. You suggest that the presence of sources, citations, "facts" as you put it, means that your opinion doesn't come into it whatsoever. However, isn't it correct that we all have our opinions and choose facts to back them up? In your case you have done research, but it's quite limited, and you seem to be making conclusions based on a small amount of information. Don't those conclusions match your existing opinions?
And as for the final part of your post, about the selected criteria for "classics" preventing much anime from being eligible: does this really stand in the way? Can't something fantastical provide real-life commentary? Science fiction, for example, is a popular medium for allegorical representations of the real world, or for exploring the possibilities of contemporary issues. As for standing the test of time and featuring compelling plots (that's an expansion of the point about dialogue and characterisation), doesn't that happen in anime? I feel like on this point, you set up your special criteria and then argued that anime doesn't fit, without actually giving clear explanations for why not.
Apologies for another long post, but this is an area I've studied quite a bit, and I felt that I should challenge some of the points you made.
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| 08.13.2015, 02:49 PM |
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Koda
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Anything from Ghibli is a classic tbh, but the stand out one for me is Fireflies. Akira ?? Ghost in the Shell ?? Paprika ??
Anime isn't really that old, if you think about it. Anime is only becoming more popular now over here. What makes a classic.
As mentioned before Jersey Boys is a classic in my eye, films like
Shawshank Redemption
Breakfast Club
Titanic
Pear Harbour
Godfather Films
Notebook
Nolan's Batman Trilogy
Scarface
Casino
There is tons
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Post last edited by Koda on 08.13.2015, 04:01 PM.
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| 08.13.2015, 03:57 PM |
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Saddletank
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My take on a classic is that it must stand the test of time and be significant decades after it was created, rather than just a decade or two. For me none of the films mentioned in the post above rate very highly. I even thought about this today while working and 'Titanic' came to my mind. It had superb special effects but beyond that - there is nothing, just a love story and not a very good one at that. The recent Pearl Harbor film is an even poorer choice to be rated classic. It was again a few minutes of very good (but in places overly gratuitous) CGI but nothing else at all. In fact the plot outside of the historical story was dreadful. The 1960s joint US-Japanese production 'Tora Tora Tora' was a far stronger film despite the limited ability the director had to stage a realistic bombing scene.
My take on classic films are titles like 'Battleship Potemkin', 'All Quiet on the Western Front', 'Citizen Kane', 'Wizard of Oz', 'Ben Hur'. For modern cinema I really wouldn't call anything classic that's more recent than '2001 - a Space Odyssey' and maybe the first 'Star Wars' film, though none of the later-made ones. There are some cult-status movies such as 'Eraserhead', 'Solaris' (the original) and 'THX 1138' which might slip into classic status.
Classic anime is hard to define. 'Akira' and 'Ghost in the Shell' will probably become classics given time, but it is still too recently after their release for that. 'Spirited Away' may become a classic. I think that movie stands head and shoulders above all other Ghibli releases for technical and artistic reasons. Its not my favourite but then personal opinion, by no matter how many people, does not make anything classic.
A process that I think is important is that every art form has its own benchmark. Animation is never taken as seriously as live action film-making. One could never ever claim any animated film to be a classic at the same artistic level as 'Citizen Kane' for example. I therefore think its fair to pitch the 'classic status' for animated works at a lower level than for live action. 'Akira' will never be considered as great a piece of art as 'Battleship Potemkin' but it probably deserves to be awarded classic status within anime.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 08.13.2015, 05:34 PM.
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| 08.13.2015, 05:30 PM |
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saviour2012
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@arren i will answer your questions tomorrow.
@all
Classics should be popular, should not it?
Popularity is a criteria that certifies if a art form has appeal or not, in other words if it has passed the test of time.
If it is not popular then how is it classic?
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Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
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| 08.14.2015, 02:54 AM |
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Saddletank
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I'm glad you raised that point Saviour, because I think its important and the source of many misconceptions.
No, popularity is nothing to do with being a classic - often quite the reverse. What appeals to millions of people is not necessarily good art at all, otherwise Transformers would have people calling them classics. I have never watched most of the films I mentioned above so have absolutely zero personal opinion on them but I know they are classics.
A classic film has to be very, very good in technical terms - directing, pacing, editing, composition, use of colour or - for B/W - tone, all those other factors that make up the film makers technical art. It must also be highly significant in content - this can mean anything and I wouldn't say it has to include any discreet set of criteria such as strong characters or impactful dialogue; the whole experience must be significant. The original 'Solaris' has almost no dialogue and no characterisation, but it is an incredibly moving film to watch.
Finally as you said before, it must speak to the viewer and what it says must be socially relevant both at the time of its release and to future generations. Future generations may not enjoy it, they may not even fully understand it but social commentary or some similar important element needs to be present.
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| 08.14.2015, 03:30 AM |
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Saddletank
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More succinctly I ought to say that popular films are not necessarily classics, but classics become popular films.
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| 08.14.2015, 11:26 AM |
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arren18
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Similarly, some things become classics in hindsight. That is, at the time they might've been overlooked, but then people reassessed them and found that they were actually very important.
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| 08.14.2015, 01:20 PM |
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Roarkiller
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Days late, but eh, that's life.
Personally I consider akira and GitS to be classics. Both were revolutionary in their genre (sci-fi) the same way star wars was, although not as popular obviously.
But I do agree that the term "classic" itself is debatable, and when the question itself is up for debate, the question sort of loses its point. That said, I don't agree that modern classics don't exist. I think the term itself is a way people separate the really old (gone with the wind) and the rather recent (The Matrix).
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 08.17.2015, 07:51 AM |
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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller when the question itself is up for debate, the question sort of loses its point.
Why?
I don't see the logic in that at all.
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| 08.17.2015, 10:29 AM |
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Roarkiller
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Because, for example, you can't argue on whether classic are no longer when you cannot even define what a classic is.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 08.18.2015, 07:03 AM |
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arren18
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Of course you can. It makes the discussion more interesting really, because if we all agreed on what a classic is, we'd be more likely to agree on what counts, and therefore whether they are dying out or not.
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| 08.18.2015, 07:22 AM |
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Saddletank
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Yep, Arren has it. First we define what a classic is (we're not going to fully agree but I expect we'd agree some basic criteria), then we can judge any film against those criteria.
I was hoping the discussion would go off in a format something like that right from the start. That would also allow forum members to use actual examples of good anime films or TV series to support their contention and we'd end up with (hopefully) someone saying "I didn't know 'X' was that good - now I need to watch it".
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| 08.18.2015, 10:29 AM |
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Roarkiller
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Personally I don't think a "classic" is something that has to be technically good as you put it; many shows are just a cult hit which makes them "great" instead of really great. X-Files, Mr Bean and Mind Your Language are a few series that are arguably "great" instead of great, but receive rave reviews even today due to their popularity. In that sense, I disagree that quality is the only major defining factor; popularity plays a big part as well. Something can be a classic due to how bad it was, for instance, as in the case of English As It Is Spoke.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 08.18.2015, 01:45 PM |
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FlareNetworkC
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I agree. A classic does not have to be good to be a classic. For example, you can consider School Days as a classic Harem anime. Is School Days good? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NO.
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| 08.18.2015, 05:41 PM |
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saviour2012
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@Arren
Sorry man, was busy doing various stuff that took my time.
Lets go through your questions one by one
quote:
What do you mean by this? Is this the animation industry in general, or specifically in Japan? What kind of people actually entered the scene and by what means?
What i have said was about animation as a whole. In one sentence i would say "the inauguration of Cartoon Network". Basically in this time animation reached an acceptable quality that was possible to achieve on a short budget to start a television channel of only cartoons. That had a pretty heavy impact popularizing the medium to many people around the world like myself. I watched the same cartoon network as everyone else in 1995-1999 period. Another important one is Disney Television Animation(1984) they actually introduced the high quality TV animation idea. You might think if they had any connection with japanese animation, i would say yes and no. If you are talking about tv then yes, about movie no. If you carefully watch japanese shows at that time most had almost shitty quality, it was the invent of Neon Genesis that introduced the idea that high quality animation is profitable(actually in the original run production turned into chaos) and doable. But that trend was already present in USA. However in Movie section japan was ahead of USA many times particularly in had drawn animation. What i am trying to say is in this period Animation established itself into a really important side of TV.
Now lets come to the point that what kind people joined the scene. I would say engineers. More specifically programmers. This period was the boom period of Top quality CGI and 3D animation. People saw "Jurassic Park" that is practically animation to its highest peak considering the time(1993). Later many other different techniques were designed to make animation easier and more realistic. Introduction of new technology[as you all said technical side is one of the main criteria of being a classic] can induce creative minds to think about new possibilities. I think it is that what happened in that time. Many of the classics of that time has relation with technology [to name lets see Jurassic Park, Toy Story, Matrix etc]
i do not think that the weeb part need any discussion cause i found those from internet forums and discussions. I think its fairly credible source, and enough to portray the outlook about a particular group in mass people. In here too i do not consider japan specifically cause Anime as a masterpiece or classic is a global matter. If a show is not popular in outside world(or for many many people) then its just a cult classic not a classic. I do not think it is in anyway possible for a film which is very high quality and still be unknown to outside world.
Now please let me elaborate the matter a bit as the current topic seems to distinguish what exactly is classic. I will return to your topics a bit later in this post.
-----
Now what Saddle said is basically "Not all popular films are classics but all classics are popular" and arren you said that even if they were not popular in their inception classics become popular.
I agree with you guys 100%. you actually agree with roar that popularity plays a big part making an art form classic.
I think i should clear it up for quality too. An Art form has two measure of quality performance
1.Artistic Quality
2.Technical Quality
Technical Quality can be universally acclaimed by the peers(spectators, fellow directors, critiques). However the Artistic quality is highly subjective person to person because it can not be clearly defined. The films those are cited for its artistic quality are mostly cult classic.
So i think we can use three simple criteria for defining a classic
1. Popular among general people after many years of inception
2. Extra ordinary Technical Achievement
3. Has a deep revelation about a social phenomena
please reply if these are acceptable criteria for defining classic.
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back to you Arren
you asked me what i meant when i said that
quote:
Majority of this income comes from terrestrial broadcast(TV) of which majority is Anime.
I think you have misunderstood me, just a little. If you read the post i said majority of the income comes from induced sources(e.g. dvd, merchandising etc.). I am saying that Anime is made that way that it CAN earn that money. got it. And Anime(along with manga division) IS the biggest earner of japanese entertainment if you exclude the music industry. And a major export item too. TV shows mostly earn from advertise but it is Anime industry that actually can survive on OVA and merchandise. The quality problem you mentioned is not a budgetary problem it is more like a competition problem. Think like this, there is a ferrari(Ghibli), a BMW(Ig Production), a Benz(other good studios like sunrise, bones etc) in the market. Try to think what a chinese manfacturer will try to make. will he make a supercar that is likely to suck or sell low quality cheap cars(hentai, eechi and other bad stuff) for general people. I think you understand my point.
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Why are you so sure that sexualisation in anime is a modern issue? Could this be another issue of quantity?
Here what we need to understand is what is sexualization. Now Arren please dont mind i understand that you are an arts major so you definitely have better understanding than me knowing what it is. But please stay with me , have you seen one single ghibli movie that tries to make use of this aspect. why not cause every other studio there seems to utilize it. Are you trying to say that ghibli characters are not attractive, ghibli theme is not adult enough. I definitely agree that it depends on the director but mainly it depends on target demographic who are you making the show for. That is the fact, Ghiblis are made for wide audience while most anime only appeals to very few people [the guys i described above]. So to keep these guys interested fanservice is necessary. You can watch the commentary of hayao miyazaki about these people on youtube. And if you ask me if it is a more prevalent term than before i would say definitely. The nasty types of anime(loli, harem etc) were not prevalent in the past. Japan is a modern country just like usa and uk. so the idea of free sex(the idea of having sex without any obligation to marry and adultery) was already present in the society. and art is a part of society. But nowadays Anime is like fetishland for perverts. It definitely was not like this before. If you have anything to say about this i am all ears.
i am separating the last part a bit for some reaons
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Can't something fantastical provide real-life commentary? Science fiction, for example, is a popular medium for allegorical representations of the real world, or for exploring the possibilities of contemporary issues.
you actually said my words, when i wrote that post i thought exactly that. I actually gave an example that totoro is a fantasy film in my opinion. but it has deep messages. but if you carefully look at it the story is about two sisters not the totoro. another example charlie and chocolate factory, it also has deep messages but again it is not about the factory. an art form that has the subject fantasy but still have deep messages. But i could not find any. thats why i came to a conclusion that it can not be. although i have not said it anywhere in the post, i think you got that idea from the tone of my writing. i am very willing to hear your part of the discussion about it.
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And as for the final part of your post, about the selected criteria for "classics" preventing much anime from being eligible: does this really stand in the way? As for standing the test of time and featuring compelling plots (that's an expansion of the point about dialogue and characterisation), doesn't that happen in anime? I feel like on this point, you set up your special criteria and then argued that anime doesn't fit, without actually giving clear explanations for why not
you are practically accusing me that i said classic anime do not exist. No i did not mean anything like that. what i said is because of the inherent nature of anime it i very unlikely that classic anime to be created. And the points above verifies it.
quote:
[as it is not a personal opinion, rather opinion based on facts]
This point is a bit of an aside, but I seem to remember you saying something like this before, in another debate. You suggest that the presence of sources, citations, "facts" as you put it, means that your opinion doesn't come into it whatsoever. However, isn't it correct that we all have our opinions and choose facts to back them up? In your case you have done research, but it's quite limited, and you seem to be making conclusions based on a small amount of information. Don't those conclusions match your existing opinions?
what i mean by that phrase is my opinions are based on facts i learnt from somewhere that is acceptable. So i am confident about them. but i am putting these on debate so that they can be peer reviewed and verified, i may change it if i find acceptable counter-proof. when i say my opinion is personal i mean it is gained by personal experience and i am not willing to change them, and i do not want a debate.
to answer the second part my opinion forming is a bit complicated process. i am giving an example remember when i debated about dress sense. when most of the guys opposed my words i thought you guys were blind to put it politely. but over the last three years the interaction with you guys made me realize the cultural situation of your countries and i became respectful of guys. my opinion forming is similar i try to see the picture from all the angles possible as far as my ability supports me. it is very tough, you need to do a lot of research. i have experience of finding the relevant information fast so most of time my opinions have more possibility of being correct.
and do my conclusion match my opinion no, not always. such as when i first experienced anime i thought it was excellent. and i saw some great shows. so i wanted to know what everybody thinks about it. thats when i get to know about the dark side of anime industry and the whole otaku business. my opinion toward anime was generally positive at first but now i am very picky to watch a anime. not for the sexualiation only also for the weird stuff.
Thank you very much for your time reading this big post. I do want to make this debate longer. Cause i want to return to the main topic about classics. If you find any problems in my logic please correct me i am always open for discussions.
__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 08.19.2015, 05:10 AM.
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