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shiawase
Ohmu
Registration Date: 03.09.06
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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I was wondering if we could all have a nice chat on religion, no mocking, no stereotyping, no bashing, please? I am curious to know everyone's take on Buddhism, or any other religion, does anybody care to enlighten me? (no pun intended)
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~Akarui Tsubasa~
I will save myself from the world I created.
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 05.23.2006, 11:54 AM |
    
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Phyrra
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Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
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At school, religious studies is my favourite subject. Religion deal with people's lives and their view on the world. I think learning about and discusing religions is one of the best things in the world. 
In fact, I have so many views and things that I'd like to discuss that i could fill this entire thread with only my own thoughts.
However, I'll state just one... or two...
I think all religions worship one God. That includes all deities, from Brahman for Hindus to G-d for Jews. The same Angels/ Avatars too. Angel Gabreil appears in the Bible, and in the Qur'an Angel Jibril appears to Muhammad.
If there's one belief I really don't agree with, it's those who call themselves agnostics. The "oh, I don't think we will ever know" is somewhat lacking in logic. What can we be sure of? And if an omnibenevolent God created the world, He couldn't leave it to do its own thing, He would have to provide guidance, hope, love and sustain His creation.
Phew...
After all that typing, I'd love to know wht others believe  .
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Post last edited by Phyrra on 05.23.2006, 01:13 PM.
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| 05.23.2006, 12:51 PM |
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SpiritedSen
Totoro
Registration Date: 05.10.06
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I am an athiest...I do not believe there is 'a higher power' or that the world was created by some all-seeing deity. I believe in the big bang, evolution, and a lot of fortunate circumstances!
I think a lot of why people believe in religion is because of the everlasting life in heaven (or where ever) stuff (Subconsciously speaking. This is obv a personal opinion and is not meant to undermine anyone). I was brought up as a Catholic, and suddenly realising (an epiphany would not really be the right word!! )that you die, and that's it, is a pretty depressing thing! I sometimes wish I did have faith in something, because realising you are ultimately gonna die and rot does lend a certain air of futility to life, but once I believed that, there was certainly no way I could ever become religious again (unfortunately, faith must overtake logic, and I simply can't do that).
But, at the end of the day, I'm cool with whatever makes people happy! Religious freedom is as important as freedom against homophobia, or freedom against racism. As long as no one gets hurt, everyone should be allowed to live their lives exactly as they wish. Power to the people!!
On the plus side, I think the idea of hell (or where ever) probs does have good points and stops some people listening to their baser instincts. Ultimately, I agree with Voltaire, who said "If there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him".
Also, I must say I find it strange that (and really I can only comment on catholicism), it's all "Love one another as I have loved you", yet more wars have been fought over religion that anything else ("Worship false idols and I'll smite you all!" ). I say live and let live, let bygones be bygones, and let's celebrate our differences! Vive la difference!
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Post last edited by SpiritedSen on 05.23.2006, 02:00 PM.
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| 05.23.2006, 01:27 PM |
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052 |
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quote:
Originally posted by SpiritedSen
Also, I must say I find it strange that (and really I can only comment on catholicism), it's all "Love one another as I have loved you", yet more wars have been fought over religion that anything else...
I say live and let live, let bygones be bygones, and let's celebrate our differences! Vive la difference!
That's a cool view on things, and I wish more people would take that view; the world would be a better place .
Although, I have to say one tiny thing. No wars whatsoever have been fought over reigion. Wars are fought for a variety of things, sometimes interpretation of religion. One lot of people believe one thing about their religion, they meet a disagreement and boom! there's a fight, cos they can't sort out their differences.
I know that's a gross over-simplification.
I'm a Christian by the way ~ a protestant to be exact. In fact, a member of the united reformed branch of Christianity to be super exact. I was brought up iin a Catholic school, but i disagree with lots of the catholic views. I follow Christianity because of a couple of things. The fact that evolution could do everything we see today without some diety seems, to me, to be ridiculous. I know this sounds odd too, but i feel God when i pray. I think evolution/ Big bang was God's way of creating the universe.
Anyway, what do other people think?
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| 05.23.2006, 02:24 PM |
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IluvHowl06
Ohmu
Registration Date: 03.19.06
Location: Seattle Washington
Posts: 296 |
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uhh...i've been learning about the Japanese Shinto religion, and the Vietnamese Cao Dai religion due to my international friends, but I am Catholic.
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| 05.23.2006, 09:36 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
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And I'm guessing that I'm the only muslim in this whole board.
The idea of the big bang and evolutionary theory is not entirely wrong, actually. In fact, the only problem muslims have with the evolution theory is with the "humans evolve from apes" theory, of which even then isn't even the actual evolutionary theory. The theory, different from what the masses have interpretated and believed, is that BOTH primates and humans evolved from the same ancestor.
To us, of course, this is false, since the Quran states that Adam and Eve originally lived in heaven and later descended to Earth for disobeying god.
The idea of religion being a branch of one original religion is not really too far fetched. Taking into account the more commonly-heard religions, Christians, Hebrew, Jews and Muslims all share the same prophets of old. For instance, The Hebrews were led by Moses, the Jews knew Abraham and Isaac, Christians saved by Jesus, and Muslims descended from Adam.
As a Muslim, I find it odd that people almost never discuss this striking similarity in these religions' history. When you think about it, some prophets that don't appear in Hebrew history appear in Jew and Christian history, and some prophets that don't appear in Hebrew and Jew history appear in Christian history. Islam includes all.
One theory I heard about was that since Islam has all the prophets, therefore it is the ultimate copycat, and I first heard of this from a Christian (a book, not a person, for those wondering).
Technically, Islam is like the final descendant of all these religions. After all, for us, the last known prophet before Muhammad was Jesus.
... Currently out of ideas of what to write so I'll stop here.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 05.24.2006, 12:01 AM |
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squall_leonhart
Kodama
Registration Date: 05.16.06
Location: kamloops
Posts: 31 |
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wow some pretty interesting stuff here. umm i guess i should start by saying that i really dont have a religion or more or less i guess im sorta half budhist half whatever else. i believe in enlightenment it's a feeling weve all most likely been very close to i dont pray or chant or anything but i do meditate every once in awhile i think the longest ive ever been totally removed from the world is about 3 hours and it only felt like 20 mins.
I do believe we go on to do things after we die like have new lives abd not remember the old ones because the whole living in heaven (or whatever) after you die forever seems very boring to me even hell seems kind of bad, like seriously some of these so called sins that automatically get you a place in hell are like not that bad to forever have to endure eternal pain. but yeah i do believe that we have new lives but have no memory of previous one's. i guess thats my take on my religion/belief.
I have one more thing to say and since this is an open forum dont criticize me to much for it : if life actually started with adam and eve making the entire population i just kind of think thats kind of a messed up view on life, it's pretty much saying that we were all the product of family incest. thats my oppinion and im allowed to have it.
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Squall: "Why do people rely on eachother? In the end, we're all on our own."
Post last edited by squall_leonhart on 05.24.2006, 10:13 PM.
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| 05.24.2006, 10:11 PM |
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E_Hakki
Ohmu
Registration Date: 12.29.05
Location:
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quote:
Originally posted by squall_leonhart
I have one more thing to say and since this is an open forum dont criticize me to much for it : if life actually started with adam and eve making the entire population i just kind of think thats kind of a messed up view on life, it's pretty much saying that we were all the product of family incest. thats my oppinion and im allowed to have it.
Yeah, same applies to Greek mythology with Zeus being the brother and husband of Hera. Still, as revolting as the idea is, it could be true. Even in modern history we can find such examples, i.e. many of the Habsburgs/Holy Roman Emperors were inbred.
As for the religion, I think its a personal thing (just like Calvin argued). I do believe in God, but do not follow any mainstream teachings. Basically, I think that if you follow the basic moral code outlined in all major religions, then no being, be it human or divine, can codemn you.
The only two exceptions to my tolerance are Extremists and Jehovah's Witnesses. I simply cannot sympathise either of them.
For extremists to take the life of an innocent in the name of God is quite sickening and a severe distortion of any religion, discrediting it and creating further rifts between people.
With Jehovah's Witnesses, I strongly disagree with the philosophy of leaving the sick or wounded to die or recover naturally. We developed intelligence for a reason and to ignore its utilisation at the time of our greatest need is, what I feel, simply irresponsible.
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| 05.24.2006, 10:51 PM |
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shiawase
Ohmu
Registration Date: 03.09.06
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 293 |
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Great thread so far guys, kudos! Now it's my turn...
I am a Christian currently undergoing a conversion to Buddhism.  <--- yes you're all entitled to make this face after reading that sentence... I've found that religion in general is, obviously, a major part of everyone's life. You aren't safe - ANYWHERE - from religion or religious people. Heck, they'll come straight to your door if need be! Turn the corner on your way to your fav coffee shop and !BAM! there's a church of sorts staring you in the face, block after block after block...
Everyone believe's in something, right? Wether it be evolution, a God of sorts, angels, demons, polaric Heavens (Nirvanna).
Personally I think Evolution/Big Bang to be bogus, my opinion remember that. Honestly, how can we, humans, evolve from primates and if we did, why isn't it still happening?! And why aren't we still evolving to a greater being? This can't be the end of our cycle can it? Questions questions questions..... Imperfections to the max.
Buddhist's (myself) believe that after you die you're reborn into another life. Not into golf course grass, not into an animal, or any other object (step ladder for instance). You're reborn as another human baby with no memory of previous lives. Gotamma (The Buddha) achieved total enlightenment and inherited the title of "Buddha - Enlightened One". There was only one other Buddha before him.
I've written so much already, I'll continue after a few of my questions have been answered... 
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~Akarui Tsubasa~
I will save myself from the world I created.
Post last edited by shiawase on 05.25.2006, 02:56 AM.
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| 05.25.2006, 02:54 AM |
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052 |
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This thread has been quiet for a little while, so I'll try and thrown in some controversial comments to kinder the discussion's embers...
Buddism doesn't need people to convert solely to it. Hey, you could be a Christian-Hindu-Buddist if you wanted to. I don't really see Buddism as a religion, just a caring way of life. I say that because it doesn't have a deity. But that's only my opinion !
Reincarnation. Now theer's an interesting idea. I believe that there's a God. I'm 110% certain that there is, in fact. Because I think that there's an all-loving God, I believe that there can't be reincarnation. An all-loving God would have to have an afterlife for His creation. He could not be all-loving if He put us through the suffering of rebirth after we die. So, if you were interested Shiawase, that's my personal opinion on the idea of samsara and moksha , (good old religious terms ~ makes me look like I know what I'm talking about... I hope...)
And I do agree that everyone believes in something. It's human nature to look around us and think, "hey... why am I here... is there a reason?"
I also agree with evolution. There's too much evidence for it. My own personal view again, is that God employed evolution to create the universe.
Science explains how things happen, religion explains why...
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| 05.28.2006, 11:34 AM |
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Tresi
Tanuki
Registration Date: 01.22.06
Location: Germany
Posts: 62 |
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Religion is a very important topic and your views of it are
very interesting.
Religion is a wonderful thing,as long as everyone is tolerant enough to accept other religions next to his own one.
Religion should never be be a reason for war or violence.
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| 05.28.2006, 04:10 PM |
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Gorgy
Kodama
Registration Date: 12.13.05
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continuing this interesting thread i post my opinion:
ill put it this way, i think god is like a block of stone, and science is the tool for shaping it.
initially men found god in simple events or things such as a storm, a mountain, the earth, etc. but then someone gave a little more though to it and discovered that mountains were formed by the rotation of the earth, storms where caused by the cycle of water, etc. so god was molded to "the creator of earth". Then someone realised that the sun and earth where different bodies in a huge space, so god was reformed as "the creator of the sun and earth", and so on, so on, so on...
so as a conclusion, god is a necesity when human thought can't figure out the problem, but then what do we know about what will be discovered next?
i think that in the end the form of god will be something, but no one can tell what it will be, and thats where religions fail, they try to give an everlasting idea of something that cant be defined surely.
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Post last edited by Gorgy on 05.28.2006, 05:19 PM.
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| 05.28.2006, 05:05 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
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The idea of god being in existence is usually connected to the fact that energy can't be created or destroyed, so that energy must come from somewhere, and so the idea of god comes to mind. Scientifically, it is impossible to go back to a point before time, so scientists are now stuck as to how to discover how that particular form of energy actually existed in the first place.
I once had a debate with someone about the Darminian theory, and he told me that the Darwinian theory does NOT specifically state that humans evolve from primates.
The idea of the Darwinian theory is that as tens or hundreds of milennia passes, creatures try to further adapt to their surroundings, and with that much passing time, their body structure changes to suit this fact, the same way our body develops immunity to certain diseases that people in the past do not have, simply because they weren't even exposed to it.
(I once read a story about this guy who managed to build a time travel machine that can only go to the future, and he died the day after arriving several decades ahead, simply because he did not develop the natural immunity for a certain disease that others had.)
In that sense, the Theory of Evolution is perfectly sensible and plausible. And the idea of Adam and Eve isn't that far-fetched either; I once read a report that scientists had calculated that even with billions of humans on Earth, including those who had died, the number of generations (grandfather -> father -> son) is itself a very small number, supposedly not even in the triple digits.
Plus, the famous missing link, the final link between the ancient known species of primates and homo sapiens, has yet to be discovered.
The story of human population growth goes that every offspring of Adam and Eve came in twins of a boy and a girl. It was then decreed that each twin would marry each other. So technically the incest would only occur for a single generation, since marrying your cousin isn't considered incest after all.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 05.28.2006, 10:00 PM |
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shiawase
Ohmu
Registration Date: 03.09.06
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 293 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Phyrra
[God] could not be all-loving if He put us through the suffering of rebirth after we die.
This is where my belief comes in. You had said before that one could be a Christian-Hindu-Buddhist. Well, since Buddhism IS a philosophy rather than a full fledged religion, how can one follow God and his teachings plus Buddha's? They completely contradict eachother. I am a Christian and I am taking interest in Buddhist philosophy. But God teaches that in order to get into Heaven, to have a peaceful afterlife, we must follow Him. Which means we bow to no other God, we follow no other path, we abstain from sin, and so on and so forth as He tells us to do.
Now is when I start to get a little mislead so to speak. I find The Buddha's teachings to be VERY similar to that of God's but the Dhamma (Buddha's teachings) clarifies things left unsaid or easily misinterpreted in the Bible. You go to two different places in the end. Buddhism you could be reborn or if you reach the state Gotamma did you could go to Nirvanna. God says there is a heaven if you follow him. If you have unforgiven sins and an empty heart you will go to Hell.
Back to rebirth. What you said that I quoted above. One does not remember the pain and agony of living in the womb and the act of being born unless one meditates and focus' the mind on remember that primal state. It takes many years to be able to concentrate such strength on one memory. Anyways....
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~Akarui Tsubasa~
I will save myself from the world I created.
Post last edited by shiawase on 05.29.2006, 03:30 AM.
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| 05.29.2006, 03:28 AM |
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgy
thats where religions fail, they try to give an everlasting idea of something that cant be defined surely.
Actually, there are no religions that give an everlasting idea of God. Islam teaches that there are 100 names of Allah, and humans only know 99 of them. Christians and Jews both believe that God is beyond space and time, and completely beyond human understanding. In the book of Job for example, Job questiosn God's motives, and the a guy called Elihu answers;
"He [God] is the greatest teacher of all. No one can tell God what to do."
One of the Muslim stories of Hodja explains how nothing happens unless Allah wills it to happen. Human's cannot understand His impetus for things, only that they are part of His plan (al-Qadr).
And I didn't really explain my point about Buddhism and God properly. There are many Buddhists who don't believe in a God. Buddha himself said that;
"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".
Meaning that one reason for believing in God is because of fear. Others say that believing in a God is not necessary (I of course disagree wholeheartedly). There are Buddhists who do believe in a deity. and who follow the various advice Buddhism offers, but also believe that there is a God out there.
I think that Hinduism, Christianity and Buddhism go hand in hand. Ramakrishna (a Hindu) taught that there are many ways to God, so converting to another religion is never necessary. Buddhism is a way of life, most Buddhists I know say that it's fine to believe in a God and to follow Buddhism. And Christians... well, Jesus is much like Bhudda:
1. Both fasted for 40 day
2. Both tempted by the devil
3. Both refer to themselves as "the light"
4. Both teach forgivness and to 'love thy enemy'
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says that Jesus met with Buddhists ~ but I'm not too sure whether he has any proof...
Still, keep up the discussion. Oh, about the rebirth thing. There is so much suffering in this life (wars, hunger, disease, famine, natural disasters etc) that it isn't hard in my mind to remember suffering! I stick by my belief that an all-loving God will have to welcome us into an afterlife, and spare us from the ordeal of having to live on earth, and thereby suffer, once again.
A Jewish Midrash:
"Not to have known suffering, is not to be truly human"... I'll leave you with those thoughts...
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| 05.29.2006, 04:27 AM |
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SpiritedSen
Totoro
Registration Date: 05.10.06
Location: Bath House of the Gods
Posts: 885 |
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 Q's about Reincarnation & Old Testement |       |
I have a question about reincarnation; it's not meant to sound sarcastic or disparraging, it's an honest question...
One soul is reborn over and over again, so how does it work that there are more people now than there were then? I mean, say it started with a million people (in the world), and those million were reborn...but now there are twenty million people...so where do the extra souls come from?
Also, do you just get reincarnated over and over again for ever, or does it stop at some point and you go somewhere else? If the latter's the case, there are even less souls to be reborn!
If someone could give me an answer, I'd really appreciate it!
Also, a question for Catholics/Christians...The Old Testement (that's the one with God creating the world and Adam and Eve, right?)...who wrote it? I mean, how does anyone know it took God 7 days if he hadn't invented people yet? Did he tell someone? Again, this is a serious question, and is not meant to cause any offence!
Thanks very much people...this is turning out to be a great thread!!
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| 05.29.2006, 11:29 AM |
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052 |
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SpiritedSen, I'm honoured to answer your questions...
Reincarnation. I'll take a Hindu point of view, beacuase it's my favourite religion. Brahman (the ultimate whole, basically their God) exists with many other atman, or souls. There are a great many atman with brahman, far more than the total population. The increase in population is all these extra atman having a go at samsara (or the circle of rebirth).
Okay, your second question. In Hindu society there are four castes, each one better than the one before it. The lowest castes don't have as many privilages as the ones above them. The lower castes are often oppressed by the ones above. They can't go to an higher caste's house, or marry someone from another caste. The caste system is central to Hindu society.
On to your answer. We all have a dharma. This means we all have a duty in this life. We all have kharma too. By fufilling our dharma, and getting good kharma (among other things) we will be reborn as a greater being. Let's say in my first life I was a dog. I was a really great dog, and in the second life I became a shudra (the lowest caste of people ~ the ones who have 'dirty' jobs like cleaners and street washers). I'm a human though, so that's an improvment. Gradually, I'm reborn as a better human in a higher caste each time. And finally, I'm born as a Brahmin, a priest, and the highest caste in Hindu society. When I'm old I become a sannyasin or a wandering hermit. Eventaully, I mediate and fast for so long, that I die.
However! I have fianally completed moksha! Moksha is the stage of enlightenment, when my atman is rewarded for fuflilling my dharma, and getting good kkarma. As a reward, I'm released from the cycle of rebirth, and am returned to Brahman... peace at last...no more suffering...
Your last question. There are loads of opinions on this. Some say the Bible is God's word, so in effect God wrote it. Some say a couple of thoughful people wrote it because they were interested in why humans exist. I believe a series of men and women under the divine influence of God wrote Genesis. I do not believe the world was made in 7 days. Literalists would say it was, but I believe that Gensis 1 and Genesis 2 (there are two of them you know ) are poetic metaphors praising God. The 7 days represent 7 stages, each stage maybe spanning a billion years. The fruit Adam and Eve ate was symbolic for us gaining the knowledge of right and wrong. Much of the Bible, in my opinion, is a metaphor for something else. Except the virgin birth and Jesus' resurrection. They are fact. In my opinion, anyway.
Ahhhh... so much typing. I really hope that wasn't too complicated... Please ask me anything you don't understand again and I'll try and simplify it. Trouble is, the more I simplify, the more I miss out and... well... then you don't get your question answered properly...
Don't be afraid to ask! ...Even if you don't understand anything I've written... just ask...
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Post last edited by Phyrra on 05.29.2006, 12:47 PM.
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| 05.29.2006, 12:43 PM |
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SpiritedSen
Totoro
Registration Date: 05.10.06
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| 05.29.2006, 04:01 PM |
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Phyrra
Baron
Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052 |
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*smiles smugly* wow, thank you SpiritedSen, I'm glad you liked my answers, but more importantly, understood them. Right, you're next lot of answers...
I'll answer the second one first, becasue it's easier . Remember that there are so many different sects of religions, each one with its own beliefs about the holy scriptures. I'll start with Orthodox Jews. They believe that the Torah ( the books Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) is the direct word of God. God read it out to Moses on Mount Sinai, and Moses was kind enough to write it down. God also gave Moses some of the Oral Torah, or the Talmud, but this was written down only after the destruction of the temple.
There is one problem with this... If Moses wrote the entire Torah, then how come Moses describes his own death in Deuteronomy, eh? Lots of jews would answer that God told poor Moses about how Moses was going to die... and then sent Moses to wrote down a description of his upcoming death... 
Some Christians might agree that Moses wrote down some of the Old testament. The rest was given to other important people through the relationship He had with them over many hundreds of years. God chooses a person and reveals to them what to write through a dream or appears to them as a physical form (e.g Elijah sees him as a pillar of flame). Then the person writes the revelation down...
Your first question makes me think harder... hmmm... you puzzled me for a while... There were two reasons why I chose to speak from a Hindu view. Firstly, it's my favourite religion (though I'm Christian myself) but secondly because I know the most about reincarnation from a Hindu prospective. I don't know as much about other religious attitudes to reincarnation, but here's what I do know...
Greek philosophers (such as phythagoras ~ the one who created the maths formulae) had a basic view on reincarnation. This view was probably taken from the Orphic religion (another one of my favourite religions ). The Orphic religion teaches that the soul and body are bound together. When someone dies, the soul is immortal and does not perish with the body. Death dissolves the bond between body and soul, but then Death is cruel. Death binds the soul to another body, and so the cycle continues. The similarity with Hinduism is that, the better one is in this life, the higher reincarnnation one will have in the next. Eventaully, one will be returned to God... (the equivilent of moksha)
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, never mention reincarnation. In fact, they reject it, and say it doesn't happen.
Buddhism. To be honest, I don't know... *cries*. You've found a hole in my knowledge...
Ahh... there is of course the religion 'spiritualism'. It's a new belief (1857) and reincarnation is the center of their faith. A process of reincarnation, each life working closer to unity with God.
How was that? Hope you found it helpfull . Don't worry about asking more questions. I love answering them, in fact. When I go to university, this is exactly what I want to study ~ religion and ethics... but now I'm talking about something else entirely... anything else?
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Thanks to mpw3d who made ths amazing sig! The avatar was made by Sarah, from www.digik.net
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| 05.29.2006, 04:35 PM |
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SpiritedSen
Totoro
Registration Date: 05.10.06
Location: Bath House of the Gods
Posts: 885 |
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| 05.29.2006, 05:15 PM |
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