Ghibli Tavern - Religion

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Actually Phyrra, in Islam, those 99 names are the ones that are most popular, to put it in a way. There's more than 99, and definitely more than a hundred. It's not that we only know 99.

Btw, as to the idea of God NOT being all-loving because so many are in suffering, then here's a mini-representaion, a popular example when explaining this.

Let's take for example a situation where everything goes right. For a normal person, this is a time when he would think LEAST of god. Now take a time when he has a real terrible time. The first thing he would curse is God for bringing misfortune, or start praying to God for things to turn for the better. So ironically, it is when things are the worst when a normal person would think of God the most.

It's a paradox of belief.

Then there's the question of why God doesn't help everyone and leaves them to suffer. Using a popular example again, it is the same as seeing a butterfly trying to hatch from it's coccoon. We can help it by cracking open its coccoon so it wouldn't suffer, but by doing so, the butterfly will never build the strength in its wing to be able to fly. Similarly, the suffering we endure is like breaking out of a coccoon, to make us stronger, wiser, more experienced, and to make us aware of how small we really are compared to the strength of God. If God were to grant our every wish and help us in every way, then there would have been no reason to work, to worship, to do anything.

@Phyrra: There's a question I want to ask a Christian very much, but would never dare ask (ey, religion's a controversial enough topic), so I'll present it here, and to anyone who can give a satisfying answer.

Why does an Old and New testament exist? Who wrote what? Which is the original? Why is there even two different versions? And why are there numorous gospel in the first place? Which is the truth?

And lastly (if what I know is to be true), if Jesus is the prophet, why would the Bible be revealed to other people instead of Jesus to write for himself?

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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

05.29.2006, 11:54 PM

Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052

quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
Actually Phyrra, in Islam, those 99 names are the ones that are most popular, to put it in a way. There's more than 99, and definitely more than a hundred. It's not that we only know 99.

Thanks for the correction Roarkiller ~ I'm not Muslim, so the only reason I know that is from someone else telling me

. Thanks though, hope I haven't got anything else worng...

Actually, I have to disagree with your paradox. When things are going perfectly, that's the time when I think most of God. But yeah, I'm probably in the minority with that belief.

Your Christian question. Firstly, most Christians, including me, don't believe Jesus is a prophet. Jesus is the son of God. Therefore, it wasn't His duty to write any of the Bible. The Old testament is the same as the jewish scriptures. It contains 39 books of stories, laws, songs and the covenant relationship between God and His people.

The New testament contains 27 books. The four gospels tell about the life of Jesus, and His teachings. It also contains letters to new Christians and poetic descriptions about the future. Although the Old testament is important, the New testament is the most important, because it describes the story of Jesus and contains the new understanding of God. It also explains Jesus' death for our sins, and the resurrection.

The bible wouldn't have been revealed to Jesus because Jesus was the one revealing it. Jesus revealed some of the New Testament, and His diciples wrote it down.

Hope that answers everything!

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Post last edited by Phyrra on 05.30.2006, 03:54 AM.

05.30.2006, 03:52 AM

SpiritedSen
Totoro

Registration Date: 05.10.06
Location: Bath House of the Gods
Posts: 885

Can I just ask a Christian...I read that the the New Testement was written 200 years after Jesus had died...with no eye witness being able to write as they were all dead, does this not compromise the validity and truthfulness of the Book? I mean, history cannot be recorded through hearsay. Any explanations would be greatly appreciated!!

Can I just say as well that I think it's great that we're all having such an intellegent and mature conversation about such a controversial subject! I think it says a lot about the way that young people think today, and that, unlike some older generations, we embrace different cultures rather than shun them!!

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05.30.2006, 11:44 AM

Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052

Hm.... I'm not sure where you read that, but the four Gospels were written by four of the diciples (matthew, mark luke and john.) All four of these people were eyewitnesses to much of Jesus' preaching and work, and wrote their books as eyewitnesses. The other 24 books in the New testament may not have been written at the time of Jesus, but many of these books do not describe Jesus' life, so the writers didn't need to have been eyewitnesses. The other books include letters to early Christians (e.g from St. Paul). However, as a Christian, I believe that God influenced all of the writing of the Bible. Taking that point of view means it doesn't matter when it was written, because God Himself would have ensured the message was completely valid.

I think its great we can talk about religions. Hey, if we didn't, then we wouldn't know much about people from different faiths. If I hadn't had conversations with people of other faiths, I wouldn't know half as much as I do!

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Post last edited by Phyrra on 05.30.2006, 12:06 PM.

05.30.2006, 12:04 PM

Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077

My best friend (probably only real friend) is a Christian. And I spend most of my social life with non-muslims anyway.

But yeah, it's nice to be able to discuss religion instead of debating about it. A forum I frequent ALWAYS have some full-blown WWIII on religion in one way or another. Either religion or politics. Really gets to your skin.

Considering that all the big hoo-hah with muslim terrorists have pretty much died down, I don't suppose there's any questions or misconceptions I can answer, is there?

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I am Roarkiller.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

05.31.2006, 01:15 AM

micg huz
Calcifer

Registration Date: 05.01.06
Location: england
Posts: 104

hey this is a cool thread!

8]

iv been away for a while though and i think i missed the boat on it.

but anyways some ideas that occured on reading your guys thoughts.

quote:
evolutionary theory. The theory, different from what the masses have interpretated and believed, is that BOTH primates and humans evolved from the same ancestor.

in actual fact humans are primates, that is the mammal group into wich we belong, we have not evolved from them. but it is true that we did not eveolve from any of the contemporary apes found in the world today, as they are a product of their own evolution. but we did (it is thought) share a comman ancestor with all contemorroary apes (indeed ~ if you keep back tracking ~ all mammals and eventually all life forms on earth) especially the chimpanzie ~ our most recently related cousin ~ with wich we share something like 98 percent of our entire dna sequence!

quote:
if life actually started with adam and eve making the entire population i just kind of think thats kind of a messed up view on life, it's pretty much saying that we were all the product of family incest

and

quote:
Yeah, same applies to Greek mythology with Zeus being the brother and husband of Hera. Still,

we came from somewher wher right? and we had to start somewhere right? we have not been simply forever existing-
in evelotionary terms (infact in any respect) it very unlikely to occur that two identical beings could be independantly created. therfore it is thought that all the people alive today and all those who have ever lived (people being taken as homo sapiens sapiens =anatomicaly modern humans) are able (if we could) to trace our genes back to one comman female ancestor in africa or a very small number of females.

so infact (gross or not) we are all the product of incest and are all realted.

they were a couple of points i thought a bit relavent -its really a very interseting thread and i would love to comment on some of the other thoughts here but i think im going on a bit too much.

just so i give to the table as well - and unfortunatly not to phyrra's tastes - i think i may have to say im a lil' agnostically inclined.
maybe becouse im a bit sceptical, yet open-minded and indecisive at the same time.
but i do think it is a valid and in some senses sensible position.
i can personaly say that a god has never been made clear to me and so i see no reason for faith in one (personanly), but i also think i would be silly and rash just to assume that becouse it is not clear to me it is non existant, after all the world wasnt flat even when many though it to be (thinking something does not make it so) and thus god may well be there even though hes not apparnet to me.

its a totaly valid point that no matter how you break things down you cannot acount for the originating force behind energy and thus matter.

if energy can not be created, but merely channeled then from wher did it come?

-NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN THIS.

but who knows perhaps that wont always be so!
and besides it doesnt NECCACERALy indicate that a god of some kind was behind it, but ther is always the possibility.

you see my conundrum?

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laputa is a

06.02.2006, 08:56 AM

Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052

If you read the thug post i made, you'll know about my problem. I had just finished writing a long, in depth resonse to various points raised and whoomph , the writing is deleted and replaced by 'my bookmarks' and a big 'camino ~ better browsing' sign. My message disappeared... So here i go for the second time... I hope this one makes it...

Yep, micg huz, agnostics really get on my nerves. The 'I don't think we'll ever know of there's a God' bunch...

God has been made clear to humanity lots of times. As a Christian, Christ is the obvious one, but there are more. The revelation of the holy scriptures, the example of miracles, feeling God when in prayer or in services, personal experience, the example of holy people and martyrs, the goodness and detail of creation...

There's a story, I'm not sure who by... anyway, it was written when the clockwork wrist watch ws the greatest and most complicated invention...

You are walking in an open field, and find a wrist watch on the grass. You pick it up and find that it is extremely complex, the clockwork is so intricately detailed and crafted with the finest precision. Do you simply accept that it appeared in the field, that it just so happens to belong in the feild. NO! Someone must have made the watch and put it/ dropped it there. It couldn't have been there by chance, someone designed and made it, as is the case with all things. Computers, calcualtors, calendars, books, pencil sharpeners ~ everything has a creator. So why do some people say the earth doesn't???

An all loving mother doesn't just abandon her child whom she loves with all her heart, mind and soul. She wants to help him or her grow (unless in extreme circumstances). It's the same with God. If an omninbenevolent God exists, then He would never abandon creation. He would have to show himself to us, and has.

I don't mean that God will come down from the heaven with a blizzard of flames, smite the infidels to the ground and boom acroos the earth;

"I am God! Listen to me and learn from my power!"

If he did that we'd have no free will, his greatest gift to humanity. Free will allows us to refuse God and not to follow Him. If we had us tangible proof of his existance, then we'd have to worship Him, as we'd know He exists. Then we'd have no free will.

Sorry for the rushed nature of this thread. But after the previous one getting obliterated, and floating off into cyberspace, then I just want to get this one onto the boards as quickly as possible... hope this works...

EDIT: phew it did work. Don't know why the last one didn't...

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Post last edited by Phyrra on 06.02.2006, 12:19 PM.

06.02.2006, 12:16 PM

SpiritedSen
Totoro

Registration Date: 05.10.06
Location: Bath House of the Gods
Posts: 885

quote:
the chimpanzie ~ our most recently related cousin ~ with wich we share something like 98 percent of our entire dna sequence!

Just an interesting piece of trivia for you...it is true that we share 98% of our DNA with chimps...but did you know that we share 90% of our DNA with mice??!!

Just goes to show...a mammal's a mammal no matter what the size and shape on the outside! If that doesn't prove evolution, I dunno what does!!

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Post last edited by SpiritedSen on 06.02.2006, 07:03 PM.

06.02.2006, 07:02 PM

Registration Date: 03.09.06
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 293

yikes

Everytime I go back to this thread there's five new posts! By the time I finish reading them I don't have time to reply! I love this thread btw, heh it's my own but thank-you for posting so much!

Well I wonder how many other animals we share similar percents of DNA with. I could see how we evolved from chimps but mice? Honestly, lol, I killed two mice today btw, at work in my grocery store, it was disgusting...

Phyrra, I know what you mean when you say humanity can feel God's existence. In the altar, during worship, prayer, miracles, etc. From personal experience I can say I've "had a touch from God". As corny as that may sound I believe it's happened before. It can be an eye opening experience or a real shocker to your body. You need tremendous amounts of faith to be strong in Christianity. Seriously, one would look pretty crazy talking to himself on his knees before bed if he didn't believe there was someone out there listening. Right?

Buddhism puts up a good fight in arguing the fact of there being One Creator. A single God, Lord of All. Buddhism states there isn't.

As for death and rebirth (samsara), a soul can arise in 6 different ways as it states. A God, Human, Titan, Hungry Ghost, Animal, Hell (tortured soul). As a result of wholesome or unwholesome kamma, one will arise in one of these states. Kamma is intentional action and if it's either wholesome or unwholesome (good or evil), the fruit of it (or no fruit if unwholesome) decides where you go in your next life. The only way you break this cycle of Death and Rebirth is by achieving Nibbana. The mental state reached by Gotama the Buddha and countless others through years of meditation.
So Buddhism states that dhamma's, events both physical and mental, are dependant for their arising upon complex sets of conditions. Example would be the fruits of kamma in previous lives or earlier in the life you now live. These events come into existense and thus do they pass away. No beginning no Maker need be sought. An ancient verse says...
"No god, no Brahma can be called
The Maker of this Wheel of Life:
Just empty phenomena roll on
Dependant on conditions all."

He also goes on to say....

If He indeed has lorship in the world,
God, Lord of beings all and humankind,
Why in the world has He arranged travail?
And why for all there's not just happiness?
If He indeed has Lordship in the world,
God, Lord of beings all and humankind,
What purpose has He made a world of lies
with fraud and faults, with what's unjust as well?
If He indeed has lordship in the world,
God, Lord of beings all and humankind,
Unrighteous is that Lord of beings then
Who wrong arranged and not the Dhamma true.

Buddha says that a being according to their kamma entered a realm where no one else was to be found. Having no memory of his past lives and as a result of ageing, believes he has been there forever. When immense spans of time passes he becomes lonely and wishes for the company of others. Other people according to their kamma appear in this realm and he thinks that because he wished for peers that he created them himself. The beings who appeared have no recollection of their past lives and believe that they appeared by his will. So from this he goes on to glorify himself for these "creations".

To conclude, for now, I have to say this...
The greater the power of God then the less will be the ability of humanity to do what is wholesome or unwholesome.
And another quote from Buddha himself....
If God directs the lives of all that live,
Kammas good and evil, fortune, ruin too,
Then humans are but servants of His will,
While God is stained by what he's done as well.

__________________

~Akarui Tsubasa~

I will save myself from the world I created.

Post last edited by shiawase on 06.03.2006, 04:54 AM.

06.03.2006, 04:46 AM

Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052

Wow Shiawase, thanks for filling me in on Buddhism's view on things. I'm glad you understand how to 'feel' God, I was worried everyone thought I was slighty insane by that comment. It is true.

The chaplin at my school holds lots of Christian services... but I'm one of the few that go... Still, she has an interesting story of how God affected her. I'm sure she won't mind me telling you all...

When she was about five, she had a dream. In the dream the drawing of Jesus from the front of her 'children's picture Bible' came to her and told her that her younger brother was going to heaven with Him.

When she woke up the next morning, her baby brother was dead ~ I think of cot death...

Co-incidence? Meh, call it what you will, but in my mind it's an example of God working amongst His creation.

Oh, and it's a true story ~ I'm not making it up just to fill a post...

Your conclusion, Shiawase. I believe in an omnipotent God. A God who is able to do absolutely anything. but why would this affect our ability to do what is "wholesome or unwholesome". By this, I suppose you mean right and wrong. But surely the greater the power of God, the more He is able to help us.

And the last Buddha's quote. Pah! I couldn't disagree with anything more. Just because God knows what decisions we will make doesn't by any stretch of the imagination lead to the conclusion that we are servants of his will.

When you watch a Studio Ghibli film once, you learn what the characters will do.

When you watch it for a second time, you know that Sophie is going to be turned into an old woman. Are Sophie and the Which of the waste our servants? No! They will still make the decisions, but we will know the decisions they will make.

I now have the choice to revise for my Physics exam on Monday. God knows whether I will or not, but that doesn't mean I don't have free will. I have free will to choose, and God knows the final decision.

Right! I have decided not to. I'm going to revise Biology instead. God knew I'd make this decision, but I stilll had free will to make the choice myself.

Do you see what I mean anyone? Or am I rambling on about nothing...

Anyway... on with the Biology revision, the revision I made an active choice to do...

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Post last edited by Phyrra on 06.03.2006, 06:42 AM.

06.03.2006, 06:40 AM

SpiritedSen
Totoro

Registration Date: 05.10.06
Location: Bath House of the Gods
Posts: 885

quote:
Originally posted by shiawase [/I]
I could see how we evolved from chimps but mice? Honestly, lol, I killed two mice today btw, at work in my grocery store, it was disgusting...

I believe that we all evolved from the primordial soup, so theoretically every single creature on this planet evolved from the same thing. I mean, cut open the body of any mammal...the same organs that we have are in there, just in different shapes and sizes!

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Post last edited by SpiritedSen on 06.03.2006, 08:01 AM.

06.03.2006, 07:59 AM

micg huz
Calcifer

Registration Date: 05.01.06
Location: england
Posts: 104

gotta say this does seem the most likely and bielvabe (sori cant spell that) position sen. whether a god created it all initially is irelavant, you have to really stuborn to shun evolution - or really untrusting in scientists.

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laputa is a

06.03.2006, 12:18 PM

Registration Date: 03.09.06
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 293

I do believe there's a God, no doubt about that Phyrra. Like I said I've felt Him. We do make our own active decisions. God does know the outcome of every decision we will make. He know's our heart, that's why he knows what we'll do. I don't know if any of you have/had a girlfriend/boyfriend but if you've been together for quite some time you tend to know what your partner will do in certain situations. How they'll react to you killing a mouse (she was there when I did it, flipped right out), what they'll say in response to something, you begin to know their sleep pattern even, their eating habits which then let's you know what they may want for breakfast the next day, and when , and what they'll say and how they'll react to this gesture. You know someone's heart and you've got them under your thumb, you've got them figured out. God know's our hearts, He know's what we'll do.

__________________

~Akarui Tsubasa~

I will save myself from the world I created.

Post last edited by shiawase on 06.03.2006, 01:05 PM.

06.03.2006, 01:04 PM

Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052

quote:
Originally posted by shiawase
I do believe there's a God, no doubt about that Phyrra.

I wasn't accusing you or your views, I was accusing Budda's! In particular, that quotation of his that you finished your penultimate post with.

You put it very romantically, Shiawase

. And SpiritedSen, that mice thing was very interesting too. Micg huz, I do believe in evolution, but for some literalists/ fundamentalists, their religious beliefs are held so close to heart that they can't accept it. You seem to know alot about evolution and related sciences, micg huz. Do you study something to do with that at university or something? Or just interested in that type of thing? Or both...

Has anyone got a controversial religious comment to throw into the cauldron of discussion?

Ahh... I have one. Actually, I have my own answer to it too.

God is omnipotent (all-powerful). That's pretty much agreed upon by most religious believers. So can God make a stone He cannot lift?

I know, it's a pretty common religous question, but I'm always interested in people's answers

. What do you think?

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06.03.2006, 03:08 PM

Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077

quote:
Originally posted by Phyrra
God is omnipotent (all-powerful). That's pretty much agreed upon by most religious believers. So can God make a stone He cannot lift?

Haha, I always did love that question and people's responses.

My own personal response would both yes and no. He can create such a stone, and at the same time he can lift it if he wants to. It's pretty much the same as saying that man can make a structure too heavy for him to lift, but he still can lift it by other means. And I don't mean by machines

Paradoxical answer to a paradoxical question. Would love to see how people respond to this, lol.

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

06.03.2006, 10:18 PM

Registration Date: 03.09.06
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 293

quote:
Originally posted by Phyrra
So can God make a stone He cannot lift?
I know, it's a pretty common religous question, but I'm always interested in people's answers .

I have never heard that question in my life, so how common can it actually be? Heh anyways. I would have to say no. God can do anything right? He is God afterall. And if this is the God that says in His bible "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". Well we can do all things through Him, so he can do all things through us too right? He uses us for the construction of a better world. Well not 'uses' as in take advantage of but if one is willing to be used by God then they certainly will be. So I guess God can lift any stone and in response to your paradoxical answer roarkiller: the tool God would use to lift said stone would be humans. Another place in the bible it says that if we as humans won't worship God then the rocks and the trees will. This means that if we don't help God lift said stone then He will get something else to, like a tree

So if you've ever felt incompetent then this will top that feeling entirely. Seriously, having an object replace you? lol

__________________

~Akarui Tsubasa~

I will save myself from the world I created.

Post last edited by shiawase on 06.03.2006, 10:35 PM.

06.03.2006, 10:32 PM

Registration Date: 04.24.06
Location: England, Surrey
Posts: 1052

Thanks for your answers, here's mine ...

The question is restricted by human logic. The mind of a human is limited to the laws of physics and logical understanding. The question assumes that God is also restricted by these laws.

God isn't though. God is beyond time, space and logic. Logical thinking would mean an omnipotent being would have to be able to anything; even something it can't.

But surely we can't apply these laws to God. So, in conclusion, the question is wrong, becasue it fails to acknowledge that God is not bound by the same laws that human imagination is bound by...

Well that's my answer. Have you not heard the question before, Shiawase? Perhaps it's more well known over here in the UK ...

I don't like the idea that a tree could replace me... I thought I was special...

EDIT: Well done to everyone for making this such an amzing thread !

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Post last edited by Phyrra on 06.04.2006, 07:51 AM.

06.04.2006, 04:04 AM

Registration Date: 03.09.06
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 293

Quit saying God is omnipotent . You use it every post Isn't there another adjective you could use to describe Him? I mean I know He is all that and a bag of chips but seriously. Yes the question is a bit off and no I've never heard it before. Meh. Canada

__________________

~Akarui Tsubasa~

I will save myself from the world I created.

06.05.2006, 01:00 AM

Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077

To be honest, I don't even know what omnipotent means, lol

In the anime Arjuna, one philophical problem was introduced in the show, and it's very interesting.

The problem stated was that the human mind and imagination is limited to language, i.e. the words we use. Just like how the japanese has so many words for rice, but not for eskimos, yet the eskimos has so many words for snow, but we don't.

Which brings to my mind one hypnosis experiment I once read about, on how hypnosis can provoke the mind to "see" something that our conscious imagination can never produce. Supposedly, the doctor has his subjects to "see a square circle". The subjects later all concur that they saw the shape but couldn't describe it other than it being "a square circle".

Kinda makes you wonder how true this is. And how much our imagination is able to expand if we knew every language that ever existed.

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

06.05.2006, 02:18 AM