Ghibli Tavern - Your thoughts on Boys who like being girlish.

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
Boys and girls have no consciousness of their differences until they actually learn of it; girls have long hair, boys don't (yet another stereotype), boys have penises, girl don't, women grow breasts, men grow muscles. If you have doubts over this, go to a preschool or kindergarten and ask them if they know the difference between boys and girls.

Looking from a child's psyche, the similarities to me are obvious: the uncomfortable feeling transgenders get stems from the their environment. In other words, it is the society that makes them feel uncomfortable. There was nothing wrong with them in the first place. Following this thought, I therefore conclude that you cannot be born into the wrong body in the first place; it is the person him/herself who believed so.

This is assuming all gender differences are external. But there are differences in the way male and female brains are structured. So it is quite possible to have a female brain inside a male body. It's simply a matter of how hormones are distributed during fetal development. A fetus can receive hormones telling the body to develop male sex organs and then receive entirely female hormones during brain development, or vice versa.

So yes, there's scientific basis for transgender.

__________________
I like tea!

07.31.2011, 06:23 PM

Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077

No, there isn't. "Transgender" is a term for people who believe themselves to be the opposite sex. It's not the hormones that matter, it's that critical Y-chromosome. Hormone imbalance is a common enough occurence in both sexes. And if what you say is true, then explain the small group of people who believe themselves to be animals.

If you're attracted to the same sex, you're homosexual. If you act like the opposite gender, you're a butch/sissy, to use the common term.

But what you are is what you are. There's no reason to deny yourself if you weren't so self-conscious in the first place.

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

08.01.2011, 02:15 AM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

The only thing a Y chromosome does is tell the body which hormones to produce. That's it. Hormones are what dictate gender. Hormones are released in waves while a fetus is developing. So the first wave might say, "start building male anatomy" and then every wave after that might say "start working on that female brain." In minor cases, yes, you might simply end up with a feminine man. In extreme cases, you can end up with a woman who feels trapped inside the body of the man.

You seem that think that, rather than becoming transgender, a person should become gay due to hormone imbalance. But research indicates that gay men don't have more female hormones than straight men. In fact, they have more of certain MALE hormones. Homosexuality in men is more of a hypermasculine trait than a feminine one. I don't know if the same research has been duplicated in women, though.

I'm not sure I get the comment about people who believe they are animals. Seems unrelated to gender development, as I doubt it has anything to do with prenatal hormones.

__________________
I like tea!

08.01.2011, 08:55 AM

Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077

If chromosomes dictate hormones, then how does a Y-chromosome create female hormones? Only plausible explanation is if the x-chromosome created the brain, which then begs the question of a woman, without the y-chromosome, creating male hormones.

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

08.01.2011, 08:42 PM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

Men have female hormones, just in lower amounts. Women have male hormones, too. Having an XX doesn't keep all male hormones out, it just regulates the amount you receive. Or, at least, is supposed to. But chromosomes are not infallible, as you yourself have admitted:

quote:
Hormone imbalance is a common enough occurence in both sexes.

__________________
I like tea!

08.01.2011, 09:09 PM

Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077

So wait, what controls what then? Because your latest point contradicts your earlier point, meaning either chromosome can dictate either hormone. Yet only Y-chromosome holders are born male, which was my initial argument.

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

08.02.2011, 12:22 AM

Mush
Baron

Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810

Whoa, so much has happened in so little time!

Hopexx5: I feel partially responsible for derailing your thread, but I think it's for the better. ^^ We've had some pretty vigorous debates in the past and I feel we all know each other well enough to sympathize and understand each other, even with such a tough discussion. Also, in my opinion threads like these are a good way to better get to know one another and, I feel, close gaps rather than widen them. Plus we're short an RPG right now, so this is a good way to keep people checking back in, right? ^^

That said... Roarkiller, it hasn't escaped my notice that you're fighting a 1-on-5+ battle here and, although I'm sure you don't need me to say this, I want to mention that I hope it doesn't seem like we're picking on you. I do understand your position much better now than when we began, and I respect you a lot for continuing to explain and clarify your arguments rather than just leaving the discussion.

Thanks for clarifying the distinction between dislike and disapproval. I agree that I can disapprove of smoking but still get along with friendly smokers, although it will always be something of a wedge and I will pressure them to break the habit. Now I understand why your feelings on this matter are as they are, and it's a hard position to argue against. (OT - as for covering of women, I'm sure you're better-informed than I am on this, but I was under the impression that this does not actually originate from Islamic teachings but from tribal traditions?).

Many of your points I now find it hard to attack, because as you say, it basically comes down to fine points of religion and culture. That's a good thing - I can agree to disagree about stuff like that. In many of my counterarguments here, I can't rely on pure logic, as I have to ground them in my own beliefs. But my aim is to demonstrate a set of beliefs that are self-consistent and can withstand the criticisms that you've presented. There's no reason that you would need to think the same way.

Here's one point that I have to bring up though. The comparison made between transgendered people and criminals, such as this one, miss the mark entirely:

quote:
According to the counter argument, the murderers and kleptomaniacs should also be accepted, because it isn't their fault.

It's not about who is at fault, but rather what is practical. I also object to the term fault in this context because it implies that transgendered people are at fault for something.

At least to me, it's not fundamentally important whether, in a philosophical sense, a criminal chooses to commit crimes, or whether it's a matter of their upbringing/genes/God controlling that action. Either way, it is out of concern for the safety of myself and others that I would have them put in a correctional institution. Not for punishment or retribution. It's important to have a deterrent against future crimes, and wherever possible, to rehabilitate people back into society. Even if it isn't their fault, I can't accept them; I might get killed.

When it comes to people who are queer or transgendered, whether it's by choice or by nature is something for science and philosophy to settle (and currently it seems like it's by nature). But either way, unlike with criminals I have no objection to the way they are. I can't find any way to conceive of GLBTQ people as being anything but a positive force in society. Even if it is their "fault", why not accept them?

When it comes to someone, such as a parent, being offended by their child's decision, my only answer is "tough". I don't think it makes logical sense to factor in their concerns. If a parent is offended by their son or daughter over their sexual orientation, it is not the fault of the child. It's the same thing I'd tell you if you said you were offended by the way I tie my shoes.

You brought up that a sex change is a type of bodily harm and thus akin to suicide. I don't think so. There's an important difference between getting a sex change, getting a body piercing, getting a tatoo, getting botox, and killing yourself.

Suicide is - and this is my opinion - a tragedy but not necessarily a sin. I think that in principle people have the right to govern their own bodies, and in some cases that means choosing to end their own lives. But when you have responsibilities or 'contracts' with other people (families to take care of, for example) or debts (including the significant debt owed to one's parents for their investment of love and attention), killing or incapacitating yourself is a way of unilaterally removing yourself from those commitments. I'm using financial language here but I'm talking more about love than money. In this sense, suicide is wrong not because of the harm it does to your own body, but because it's similar to running away from home or faking your death.

Getting a tatoo or a sex change or cosmetic surgery doesn't keep you from fulfilling your responsibilities towards other people. So although parents might be offended by it, that burden lies with them and not with the individual getting the operation. Just like it's not my fault if you don't like my shoelaces.

That said, I do think it's absurd that we live in a society where people would feel any pressure to change their bodies to conform or gain acceptance. It's not good to make people feel so insecure with their bodies that they would risk getting breast implants. But I don't think that any kind of peer pressure or desire for acceptance is what motivates transsexuals to have a sex change.

If, however, there were a case where a man found they naturally prefer to behave and dress as a woman, of course they should be free to do this without getting a sex change. It's unfortunate that they usually aren't. That gets right back to the topic of this conversation ^^. But I don't think that this is the usual motivation for transsexuals...

By the way, yes, I would be completely comfortable if my children turned out to be homosexual. And if they felt safe and comfortable enough to tell me that they were, then I would feel overjoyed at my success as a parent.

*Edit* to bump in on Orphic Okapi's point... men and women both have testosterone and estrogen in varying quantities. It's safe to conclude that with 23 pairs of chromosomes of which only one pair is XX or XY, there's plenty of room in the genome for assembly instructions for both of those hormones.

I don't know the details about how sex is determined but I do know that all embryos are initially anatomically female and males begin to develop male characteristics after a significant increase in testosterone levels. The Y chromosome is probably responsible for managing this increase. But there are other factors than genes that control hormone production too; for example, competitive environments are known to increase testosterone levels, and calming environments reduce them.

I don't know if any experiments have been done, but maybe if you injected a pregnant mother with testosterone, her female baby would develop anatomically as a male despite its chromosomes? Maybe someone else knows better than I do...

(double edit: Wikipedia knows better than I do)

__________________

Post last edited by Mush on 08.02.2011, 12:58 AM.

08.02.2011, 12:30 AM

Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077

quote:
That said... Roarkiller, it hasn't escaped my notice that you're fighting a 1-on-5+ battle here and, although I'm sure you don't need me to say this, I want to mention that I hope it doesn't seem like we're picking on you. I do understand your position much better now than when we began, and I respect you a lot for continuing to explain and clarify your arguments rather than just leaving the discussion.

Because this thread so needs the humour XD On a serious note, I'll fight to the end of the world for my ideals and principles. Right is right, wrong is wrong, that is my first and foremost rule unto myself.

Anyway, excellent post Mushka, this is an extremely fine example of a clear rebuttal using excellent examples and relevant facts.

quote:
Originally posted by Mushka
Thanks for clarifying the distinction between dislike and disapproval. I agree that I can disapprove of smoking but still get along with friendly smokers, although it will always be something of a wedge and I will pressure them to break the habit. Now I understand why your feelings on this matter are as they are, and it's a hard position to argue against. (OT - as for covering of women, I'm sure you're better-informed than I am on this, but I was under the impression that this does not actually originate from Islamic teachings but from tribal traditions?).

Took a while to understand this part, but thanks for the understanding. Elaboration on your question towards the end.

quote:
Many of your points I now find it hard to attack, because as you say, it basically comes down to fine points of religion and culture. That's a good thing - I can agree to disagree about stuff like that. In many of my counterarguments here, I can't rely on pure logic, as I have to ground them in my own beliefs. But my aim is to demonstrate a set of beliefs that are self-consistent and can withstand the criticisms that you've presented. There's no reason that you would need to think the same way.

If you'd like, I can extend to cover such topics.

quote:
Here's one point that I have to bring up though. The comparison made between transgendered people and criminals, such as this one, miss the mark entirely:
quote:
According to the counter argument, the murderers and kleptomaniacs should also be accepted, because it isn't their fault.
It's not about who is at fault, but rather what is practical. I also object to the term fault in this context because it implies that transgendered people are at fault for something.

Once again, I did not say they are at fault in any way. The term emphasised upon is "state of mind", the key similarity betwen the two groups I addressed, not their actions or whether they are at fault.

quote:
At least to me, it's not fundamentally important whether, in a philosophical sense, a criminal chooses to commit crimes, or whether it's a matter of their upbringing/genes/God controlling that action. Either way, it is out of concern for the safety of myself and others that I would have them put in a correctional institution. Not for punishment or retribution. It's important to have a deterrent against future crimes, and wherever possible, to rehabilitate people back into society. Even if it isn't their fault, I can't accept them; I might get killed.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, but only because you missed the point. The counter-argument states that these people deserve little to no sympathy simply because of their acts. In other words, they are hating the person, not the act. Something I obviously and expressively disagree.

Jail them, send them for rehab, but DON'T hate them, and please be understanding. These people need it more than those homo groups.

quote:
When it comes to people who are queer or transgendered, whether it's by choice or by nature is something for science and philosophy to settle (and currently it seems like it's by nature). But either way, unlike with criminals I have no objection to the way they are. I can't find any way to conceive of GLBTQ people as being anything but a positive force in society. Even if it is their "fault", why not accept them?

I accept them as part of society and as who they are, I just don't approve of it. But this is beating a dead horse.

quote:
When it comes to someone, such as a parent, being offended by their child's decision, my only answer is "tough". I don't think it makes logical sense to factor in their concerns. If a parent is offended by their son or daughter over their sexual orientation, it is not the fault of the child. It's the same thing I'd tell you if you said you were offended by the way I tie my shoes.

When you're a parent one day, read this part you wrote.

No, it matters a lot, because these are the people who brought you up, and they have a certain expectation from you. It matters if they send you to school and you end up in a gang fight in a back alley, even if it's your decision. It matters if your whole family and relatives are pious, god-loving people and you end up as an atheist, even if it's your decision. It matters if you've been brought up as a boy doing boy things and suddenly you want to become a girl, even if it's your decision.

It matters. Because what you're saying is "I say so, so there" kind of attitude. You're not taking into consideration the feelings of the peple around you. And they can feel pain too, and it's not enough to just say "it's my decision".

Shoelaces are trivial. Sexual orientation is not. Shame and reputation are often at stake.

And I can say this from personal experience. I let down a LOT of people when I was 14 to pursue my own interests instead of developing myself academically. And it wasn't an easy decision. Even now I have small regrets over the decision.

quote:
You brought up that a sex change is a type of bodily harm and thus akin to suicide.

Whoa, HUGE leap there. I never said anything of the sort.

My exact words were: "Personally, I will never approve of anyone who goes under the knife just because they are unhappy with themselves. Sex change, to me, is very similar to the lines of boob jobs and botox and whatever is the trend now. Very superficial and shallow."

I was referring to people who felt the need to change themselves externally just to feel good. Hence that last line.

quote:
That said, I do think it's absurd that we live in a society where people would feel any pressure to change their bodies to conform or gain acceptance. It's not good to make people feel so insecure with their bodies that they would risk getting breast implants. But I don't think that any kind of peer pressure or desire for acceptance is what motivates transsexuals to have a sex change.

Therein lies our difference. My belief is that transgenders act as such because of psychological factors, not inborn. Reasons scattered across the board, sorry to have you dig for them.

On Orphic's part, gonna have to do the reading some time later. Fasting month means I have prayers from evening to midnight earliest and wake up at five, and with work that sucks I have little time for anything, literally.

On your early question then. This one needs some explanation on Islamic teachings.

The style of clothings come from Middle East traditions, yes, because of the weather and culture there. But the need for covering is based on Islamic teachings. Truthfully, there isn't a need to wear turbans or long flowing robes and all that, so long as the basic rules of covering up is followed. The extent of cover, as previously stated, depends on your school of thought.

To give an example, imagine the era of ladies and gentlemen, literally. Let's say the 40's. Now, imagine the long bellowing skirts, the long sleeves, the veils.

And suddenly the description doesn't seem too far from the basic requirements, does it? In modern terms, wearing a standard office suit with long pants, plus an additional headscarf, already satisfies the basic requirements.

To be a little more specific, upon reaching puberty, a child is deemed an adult, and so is expected to conform to every rule; the time pre-dating their puberty is being a time of non-compulsion, but highly recommended for them to practice it anyway.

Women are to cover every part of their body save their hands and face, while men are to cover from their navel to their knees. Of important note is that the covered parts more or less correspond to what modern society expects the general public to cover anyway; topless men are okay, topless women are not.

The coverage of women is more than a man for two reasons: to protect their modesty, and to protect a woman from the lustful eyes of men. As we can see, both are for the protection of the woman, not to restrict them in any way. Besides, a little extra cloth is hardly restricting.

And so contrary to popular belief, such coverings is not to restrict women in any way. Rather, the opposite is true: fashion for women nowadays focus on revealing more and more skin, otherwise of sexy designs, both obviously intended to lure the eyes of men. The very "liberation" that women fight for (as famously quoted by the French president's wife, who ironically, is a model whose job is to showcase her body) is already by default a tool to makes themselves nothing more than an object of desire, the very opposite of what women rights are fighting for.

An equally important but oft forgotten note is that men are also subject to such rules as well, and yet they receive a lot less attention. Strange but true.

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

08.02.2011, 01:01 PM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

I really don't want to start a separate debate about the coverage of women since we've already strayed a bit from the thread's original purpose, but you bring up some really interesting points about coverage that I'd like to talk about.

For example, are women incapable of lust? If men are allowed to walk around shirtless everywhere, they aren't being protected from the lustful eyes of women.

And the idea that topless men are okay while topless women are not is very much a cultural thing. There are countless cultures where toplessness is not problem in either gender. Why is going topless worse in women than in men, apart from arbitrary cultural difference?

I don't think I have much more to add to the transgender discussion. I will say I don't think transgender is totally a result of biology; it's probably a combination of nature and nurture, like every aspect of identity. But nature definitely plays a part, and there's science to back it up.

__________________
I like tea!

08.02.2011, 02:11 PM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
@Mushka: The stem of my argument stems from their claim, not mine. In every report or documentary about transgenders, even from first-hand discussions (yes, I've talked to some), a HUGE majority blamed god. Like, 80+%. Hence my initial statement.

Having gone through a phase in my life where I beleived in God, he does become the focus of your life completely and everything that happens to you and that you do and that you see around you centres around him, so its perfectly understandable for religious people who need to blame someone to blame God. Look at history, it is littered with cases where men blame God, its almost (or maybe even more) universal than those who love him.

I can understand your disapproval of anyone who blames their misfortune on God but isn't that something we should try to forgive rather than look down upon? Isn't trying to forgive and understand people's feelings and minds what God wants? Do you think God approves of your disapproval?

That aside, regardless of where the sample you're aware of lives or whether they beleive in God or not, all across the globe are millions of transgendered people, many who deny the existence of God. They don't blame him, many of them don't blame anybody, they just struggle to work out their issues inside themselves.

Maybe that is what we should be discussing and put religion aside?

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 08.03.2011, 05:45 AM.

08.03.2011, 04:28 AM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
Fact is, if I don't see a reasonable logic in a statement or argument, then it's not a point worth considering IMO. And since an opinion is devoid of logic at initial value, I see no point in including them in an argument, unless there is a general consensus, in which case I will state so.

Actually people's views and opnions and general comments is entirely what this thread is about, as is the case with 99% of all threads on internet forums. Its a social thing, like sex I guess.

quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller FYI I never said that transgenders and psychos are in the same boat. I meant that if a state of mind of one group should be forgiven, all should be forgiven equally.

This is the crux of everyone's issues with your comments. Why do transgendered people need forgiving?

And BTW, I'm not supporting Mushka and I don't think anyone else is, I think we are all expressing our own heartfelt opinions.

quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
You can say that this part here is opiniated. Personally, I will never approve of anyone who goes under the knife just because they are unhappy with themselves. Sex change, to me, is very similar to the lines of boob jobs and botox and whatever is the trend now. Very superficial and shallow. (I repeat, personal opinion, in case anyone is thinking of rebutting this point.)

I hardly know how to respond to this. I'm shocked. You think its reasonable to compare people who have cosmetic surgery to people who want to change their outward physical forms to match their gender?

You sincerely think this way?

That's... that's such an ugly way to feel.

O_o

In furtherance of the discussion on Hope's original topic, I think feminie guys are cool. I suspect my hormones or chromosones or whatever are balanced towards a more feminine side as well. Now that I'm living alone I find myself enjoying keeping my home clean, myself well fed and trying new recipes and I enjoy the new concept of home decorating and an appreciation for colours, furnishings and styling where the person appreciating them is me, and not my wife.

I've never considered myself a macho person and have always shied away from recreational pursuits that seem to attract such people like football matches and many other sports events.

Finally, NC I wanted to say that your long post on page 2 was the most amazing post I have read in months. It was totally heartfult and committed and spoke volumes of sense and maturity. You've grown up incredibly in the last couple of years and I feel honoured to see the wonderful changes in you. Fantastic!

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 08.03.2011, 05:20 AM.

08.03.2011, 04:51 AM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

Gah, triple posted! Deleted this and combined my posts!

Must. Read. Whole. Thread. Before. Posting.

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 08.03.2011, 05:20 AM.

08.03.2011, 05:10 AM

husky51
The Old Guy

Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12799

hahaha, frankly, I was getting confused trying to read all of the posts and back and forth with the quotes and statements, etc.

All I can say for myself is: 'People is people'

Be they tall, short, fat, skinny, black, brown, white, gay, straight, adjusted, etc. it makes no difference to me.

I like people and each and every one is different in some way from anyone else and as the saying goes;
viva la difference...

If someone wants a nose job, boob job, botox or gender operation, or to wear a dress (guys or gals), it is to make THAT person feel better about themselves and IMO that is all that counts. I don't feel that anyone else has the right to critize that person for what they do. I have some tattoos and my former church chastized me for desecrating 'God's temple'. Bullpucky! As I said, my former church. If the tat had said, "Satan is good", I could possibly see where they were coming from, but what I had was a soimple four-word tat commerating a major activity that my sons and I had done together and we all had tha same tat on our left shoulder, a kind of Father/sons bonding thing. And the church objected...

Anyway, people is people, and unless they get in my face, cuss me out or demean my family, or break any of the myriad laws of the land, they can do pretty much what they want to do to themselves.

__________________

08.03.2011, 08:31 AM

HataZaki
Ohmu

Registration Date: 12.10.08
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 317

I tempted to get in on this debate right away, but I what I wanted to say really has already been said. Husky summed it up quite nicely, live and let live. I think it's important to remember that the Tavern is filled people people from all different countries, with all different sexualities, nationalities, religions and backgrounds. We have all grown up differently, and we all see the world in a different way. We all have our own morals and beliefs based on our surroundings, and this can't be helped. So at a certain point we have to agree to disagree.

We're all here celebrating the universal appeal and magic of Studio Ghibli movies, and that's what unites us after all!

08.03.2011, 09:45 AM

Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077

Typing on my phone again. Gah.

@orphic: The word is not "incapable", but the degree of it. And a woman can't rape a man. That particular anatomy needs positive stimulation, if you get what I mean. Also, basing again on the purpose of sex, a man raped won't get pregnant, but the vice versa creates enormous psychological distress on the woman.

So it's not a question about lust, but the resulting effect. Look at the bigger picture. I haven't even touched the subject of accidental incest, which is one of the reason why we prohibit sex before marriage.

@saddle: I do think that way, yes. Both cosmetic surgery and sex change are driven by the same goal. It's not like repair surgery where you are fixing something damaged or a birth defect. Anything besides the latter, I see as purely cosmetic.

And I'm not alone in having this view either. Heck, I'm not even a minority.

On my view of people who blame god. No, I don't forgive them, because it's not my position to forgive, and also they're not blaming me, so what's there for me to forgive?

My principle stands firm. You DO NOT blame anyone, or anything, in which you have no proof of their wrong. Ever. And I will never waver from this no matter what anyone says.

-----

In closing... actually, I don't think this debate is being continued on anyway, and orphic's statement is a completely different topic too.

Meh.

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

08.06.2011, 08:24 AM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

Can we start a separate thread about coverage? Because I really want to keep talking about it.

__________________
I like tea!

08.06.2011, 11:34 AM

Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069

quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller Both cosmetic surgery and sex change are driven by the same goal.

You are so totally, completely wrong Roar. So very wrong. Cosmetic surgery is so far removed from gender change surgery that I'm staggered you can even compare the two.

quote:
It's not like repair surgery where you are fixing something damaged or a birth defect.

Actually, yes, in a way it is quite close to that, from the perspective of the transgendered person it can be very much like that.

They were born 'broken' and they are attempting to correct or fix it. In a way that's a very good way of looking at it.

And its nothing at all like having a bit of botox because you want sexier lips.

quote:
And I'm not alone in having this view either. Heck, I'm not even a minority.

Hardly relevant.

quote:
In closing... actually, I don't think this debate is being continued on anyway.

I suspect people are so shocked to see inside your head that they see no point continuing!

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 08.06.2011, 12:05 PM.

08.06.2011, 12:03 PM

Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335

God doesn't make mistakes . . . but if you're born with a birth defect, you can have surgery to fix it. If you're transgender, you CAN'T have surgery to fix it?

What?

__________________
I like tea!

08.06.2011, 12:06 PM

Flatwheels
Kodama

Registration Date: 07.31.11
Location: Japan
Posts: 27

I am okay with it..

We have this girl..eh...boy...now she looks 100% girl...was born as boy eh.. WELLLLLLL!!! I just wish she/he sometimes wears a shirt that says " I AM ACTUALLY A BOY" cause she/he has me fooled any times. I think the first time i saw her on tv (quite a common guest here on jap tv) I thinking "kawaiii!", when asking my wife about who she is, she told me that it`s Ai Haruna. Born male..now women.

http://my-favorite-girls.blogspot.com/2008/09/ai-haruna.html

08.06.2011, 06:51 PM